In regards to Saddam's capture, not only did they mention the use of friendly intel but also used info gained from prisoners. This was in the media and a great special on History channel. I think it was called "Path to Saddam" or something.

Saddam's sons were captured through friendly intel. Read my statement again from the earlier post.



In regards to where I get my info, I assume wherever I get any information to support my opinions, you'll just debunk it with "Bush Terror Spin" theories. Again, I'm not for chopping fingers off really... just anything that will save more lives down the road. I'm for more pacifistic means of torture such as sleep and hunger deprivation. What's wrong with that? Don't call me a terrorist or compare what I'd like done to being just like Al Queda. I just want to save lives and if possible, live in peace.

All and all, I'm sure the war media has been spun to the govt's advantage. I have a few buddies in Iraq, a few in Afghanistan, and one about to be shipped off to Iraq. I get a lot of my info from them and find it extremely interesting to hear straight from the horse's mouth. Yes, they don't want to be there... just like you didn't want to be in summer camp away from home. They are homesick, they dont' like be shot at, etc. All and all, they think they are making a difference and enjoy most of the Iraqi's that they've met over there. They want it to be over just like I do, but they're doing a job that they're being told to do.

Sorry if we don't meet eye to eye, I didn't expect everyone to agree with my opinion.

What context do you mean justifiable? On a personal level to save a family/friend or innocent's life in immediate danger via info someone refuses to divulge I'm sure if you're capable of using drastic measures you'd use it as the right thing to do perhaps... I'm not sure if justifiable enters the equation in those discussions. Just like I'm pretty sure if we're getting invaded on the homefront by an enemy using infantry wave attacks, all of a sudden the use of mines won't seem like a bad or unjustifiable weapon- rather the right weapon for the moment.

This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 03/07/07 11:42pm

slim, seeing as this is university level work, you got to go for the "anti-torture" school of thought. use selected quotes from Hobbes' LEVIATHAN, Plato's REPUBLIC, and Machiavelli's THE PRINCE, and you will get an "A". Sounds like a philosophy/humanities beartrap, and you don't want to step in it. You could also throw in a bit of John Locke's Treatise on Government for political liberties, but i think that Hobbes' covers that pretty well.



Good Luck


Guest Lecturer Lead


------------------------
"Ja, its not easy being Grun"


This post has been edited by Leadmagnet: 03/08/07 2:49am

Do the ends justify the means? This is very important when looking at the justificatioin of torture. I feel that if a life or lives are in imminentent danger and after all other means have been exhausted there is a chance that interrorgator using torture will save lives then it is justified. One must remember that a person who uses torture must also be accounable for his/her behaviour/actions.

I believe that when a crime is personable and serious in nature such as the kidnapping of a child or the murder of a family member, it is normal to want the perp to pay the price, "an eye for an eye". But each case is different and must be approached in a manner that will best resolve the case and let our Criminal justice system follow it's path. If you look at a child who has been kidnapped and you believe the child is still alive in grave danger of death, you must realize that torture may not extract the information you need.



Each interrorgator must look at each perp and determine how best to extract the vital information. Everyone has different buttons....and how you use apply your interviewing techniques may determine the outcome of evidence. Evidence obtained by torture is inadmissable in court. So if there is no imminent danger to save a person life, using torture would not be justifiable.



When we correlate it to terrorists, we must keep in mind that many of them have the mind set that they are ready to die for there cause. These means that torture may not have any psychological effects on them. They may provide questionable or false confessions to stall the torture, but at the same time this lengthens the investigation and causes the investigators to lose vital time in bringing the case to a conclusion. The first 24 hours are the most critical in any criminal investigation.



T/A6Pak












This post has been edited by T/A6Pak: 03/08/07 12:08pm

In wartime we (and anyone else in the war) will use whatever weapons at our disposal to win said war. Common sense. I don't see us using torture unless our enemies have brought that particular tactic to the table. I'm trying to envision having a nice chat with a terrorist that doesn't have a real desire to live, free or otherwise. Talk about pointless conversation. The majority of people on this planet want to live free. Notice the word live before the word free. To beat the enemy one first has to get their attention. Pacifism during wartime just gets the other cheek slapped. I don't know about you but I only have 2 cheeks (on my face). Goes back to the old 'fool me once' scenario.



-Pain

You should read the article that I linked. Miltary teachers believe torture almost always elicits bad or useless info. However, aside from that, have we forgotten that we got to this point in history where the free nations of the world dominate PRECISELY because we HAVE NOT made torture and mayhem a part of our society? Haven't we won because we have consistently been BETTER than them, not just in the size of our militaries, but in our will to fight for what is good and right because we know, as a whole, our society has been so much more worth fighting for than one where the governments torture and abuse anyone they perceive an enemy?

Anyway, the whole torture debate seems based on the false premise that heck, if we'd just torture like the bad guys, THEN we win, they only reason we don't win is because we aren't cruel and ruthless enough. But many years of interragation techniques used by the militaries that actually WON wars says this is not so. The Soviet Union tortured countless people over the years where the USA was, for the most part, playing mostly by the rules. Who won people? Is torture and the information it produces really all it is cracked up to be?

Anyway, it is funny to watch 24 and realize that the bad guys are always dumb, torture them for a few seconds and they spout the truth about everything. Torture a "good" guy and they keep their mouth shut, or tell lies. The entire torture debate seems to be based on this black and white scenario that is so removed from real life it is laughable.

Why are you saying that it's based on a black and white scenario? Also, our country has not based our interigation methods upon torture, but for you to think that it doesn't happen is just naive.

Just wondering then, since you're SO against any type of torture, how would you get information from an enemy? How would you extract intel from a German in WW2? Oh that's right... we should just put them up in a nice hotel with clean sheets till the war is over cause that's what they're doing for our guys. The f-ing ACLU is trying to have anything beyond basic interigation (name, rank, etc) considered torture... so you'd basically be for gaining absolutely NO information from captured enemies?

Again, sorry if you think I'm making a black and white scenario... but you haven't made any, just slamming everyone else's opinions.

I'm not just slamming everyone's else's opinion, I'm making my points as best I can.

Read the article I linked and read what you own military teachers think about torture. There are proven interragation techniques, and they don't involve torture. I know, I know, they don't have that yummy, violent "revenge" aspect to them, but they are what generally work, so when torture methods are known to not work well and are also morally reprehensible, I don't know what on earth the argument can be for them. Once you get past the fictional scenarios where when the good guys use torture, it always works, and get to the real world the conclusions are torture is a rather useless method if you want HONEST intel. I mean, if all you want is *any* intel or a confession, true or not, torture works. You can torture almost anyone to say ANYTHING, which is why non-democratic countires love it, they are less concerned about finding out the truth than gaining confessions for kangaroo courts. But is that what we want?

You're confusing me with other people's posts. I'm not for finger chopping and stuff. I'm for interigation and getting intel. I'm not glamourizing tv or movies... although, did anyone see LOST last night. Based on Sayed's past of torturing prisoners while he was in the Iraqi National Guard.

MOD, where are you based? When you say "your own military teachers" it's making me assume that you're outside of North America?

I'm not for revenge, I'm actually very empathatic most of the time. I understand that most soldier's are just doing their jobs and don't always agree w/their own govts. decisions on matters.

Whether we think torture is right or not, it has been and still will be used when needed. If you think that the US has not restored to torture many times, then you are completely wrong. There has been many cases or torture that even the public knows about, let alone what we don't know about. Not in all cases are we the ones doing the torturing but us sending our prisioners to Jordon where torturing is allowed to try to gain information for our beneifits is the same as us doing the torturing.

However, asking the question is torturing justified.. no it can't be, but are we and will we still try to use it to save lives, yes. The question is will we involve in our justice system.. for example giving a torture warrant? Given from the highest levels of goverment for only extreme cases, and if torture is done without this warrant the person who done it will be held responsible. Maybe if we had something like this in place it would cut down on the amount of unneeded torture that goes on. Such as at guantanamo prision.
Maybe something like this may help?


Thanks lead, i'll look into those.

I'm feeling tortured now.....