Just a question, I hope you all dont jump at my throat Options

[Too Exclusive]

Here's an honest question. I hope you guys don't think that asking questions is terrorist-like behavior.

If it's in Muslim religion to hate christians and to kill them, why have terrorism/suicide bombers/terrorist attacks only been going on for 20 years, when Islam and Christianity have been around for thousands of years?

I hope you guys can actually ANSWER this instead of jumping at my throat and telling me to shut the fuck up like you usually do.

This post has been edited by Too Exclusive: 08/08/05 5:46pm

[realdeal]

Here's an honest question. I hope you guys don't think that asking questions is terrorist-like behavior.

If it's in Muslim religion to hate christians and to kill them, why have terrorism/suicide bombers/terrorist attacks only been going on for 20 years, when Islam and Christianity have been around for thousands of years?

I hope you guys can actually ANSWER this instead of jumping at my throat and telling me to shut the fuck up like you usually do.

Shut the fuck up.

You need a history lesson.

Suicide bombing dates back to at least the 11th Century.
From HERE:
"The history of suicide attacks stretches back at least to the 11th century, when the Assassins, the disciples of the Persian master Alamut, conducted suicide raids on neighboring fortresses. The Koran forbids suicide, Mr. Post noted, but he added that suicide bombers often consider their deaths acts of heroism, not self-destruction, and believe they will be elaborately rewarded in the afterlife. Harvey Kushner, an expert in terrorism and chairman of the department of criminal justice at Long Island University, noted that suicide attacks are not condoned by most Muslims, but are espoused ''by leaders of religious factions within the Islamic community'' who have what he described as ''a contorted view of what is spiritually permissible.'' After their deaths, suicide bombers are often celebrated as heroes, said Vamik Volkan, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Virginia Medical School and an expert on interethnic conflict."


And Muslims have been fighting since at least the 7th Century.

From HERE:
Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

Get a clue.

[Too Exclusive]

yea, but my point is, u didn't have terrorism like it is today until about 20 years ago. there may be some vague references to it, but my point is, say back in the 1970s, people in most parts of the world didn't have to worry about being blown up by a suicide bomber. my point is that why havent the christians beeen being bombed like this for 1000s of years? they havent. there may be a vague reference or two to a suicide bomber in an act of war (a fortress, like you mentioned), but u dont have it like it is until we founded Al Qaeda in the early 80s.

[Silver]

please do the word a favor, turn gay or get castrated.

[realdeal]

Vague reference? What are you smoking? You need to check those links I posted.

Tell Israel about it... they've been getting hit since the 1950's.

[Too Exclusive]

Israel is a good point. but Israel is a completely different story. we basically took part of the middle east away from the arabs and gave it to the jews so the arabs are pissed.

[Undertow]

History lesson.
We did not take away from the arabs. We gave back to the Jews what was their's to begin with.

63 BCE-313 CE The Roman army led by Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple at 70 CE. Jewish people were then exiled and dispersed to the Diaspora. In 132, Bar Kokhba organized a revolt against Roman rule, but was killed in a battle in Bethar in Judean Hills. Subsequently the Romans decimated the Jewish community, renamed Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina and Judea as Palaestina to obliterate Jewish identification with the Land of Israel (the word Palestine, and the Arabic word Filastin originate from this Latin name).

After the exile by the Romans, the Jewish people migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the Diaspora (scattered outside of the Land of Israel), they established rich cultural and economic lives, and contributed greatly to the societies where they lived. Yet, they continued their national attachments and prayed to return to Israel through centuries. In the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Israel from Arab countries and from Europe. During the British rule in Palestine, the Jewish people were subject to great violence and massacres directed by Arab civilians or forces of the neighboring Arab states. During World War II, the Nazi regime in Germany decimated about 6 million Jews creating the great tragedy of The Holocaust.

In 1948, Jewish Community in Israel under the leadership of David Ben-Gurion reestablished sovereignty over their ancient homeland. Declaration of independence of the modern State of Israel was announced on the day that the last British forces left Israel (May 14, 1948).

[Frosty]

I'll tell you why there haven't been as many terrorist attacks before. The western world was not exerting a heavy influence there. Plain and simple. Bin Laden views the western non-Islamic world as infidels, and his backers stated: "The whole of the globe belongs to Allah, and the whole of His law has to be executed on the globe." The start of this is driving all Western influence from the Arab world so that they may consolidate their power and attempt to convert the world to Islam by force.

Bin Laden's Wahhabi sect believes that there should be no technological advancement unless it is for Allah, and that anyone who violates Allah's will should be killed. Hence, why he hates the western world's technological advances and presence in the Middle East. He feels that we are contaminating their homeland. His worst nightmare is to see Arab children growing up as he did: in Western schools, wearing Western clothes, learning about Western ideals such as freedom and democracy (especially freedom of religion). His conversion to Wahhabism caused him to turn on his own family, a Westernized Saudi family, and he was exiled. Of course, bin Laden is not the sole architect of these teachings; they have been around since the inception of Islam. However, he is the one whose wealth has enabled such groups to have the finances necessary to carry out attacks on such a large scale.

[Too Exclusive]

yea but the propaganda tells us that they hate christianity... and we're told such bullshit by the propaganda machine such as it's in the Kuran to blow urself up to kill christians... that's what im referring to.

[Frosty]

It is.... It tells them to kill the infidels, but to spare the people of the book (Christians and Jews). But, if after a time to hear about Islam they do not willingly convert, then they are to be considered infidels and killed. Most Muslims will argue against this, saying that since I don't speak the original language of the Qu'ran that all its meaning was lost in translation, but that is BS.

[Too Exclusive]

It is.... It tells them to kill the infidels, but to spare the people of the book (Christians and Jews). But, if after a time to hear about Islam they do not willingly convert, then they are to be considered infidels and killed. Most Muslims will argue against this, saying that since I don't speak the original language of the Qu'ran that all its meaning was lost in translation, but that is BS.

yea but u dont speak arabic, you don't know that for a fact. the whole thing about killing the "infidels" and shit, that's all the media's doing. Immortal Technique said it best "Jesus is the most quoted profit in the Quran."

[Druid]

There are 3 big reasons for the increase in violence.
Stupidity - Although the people who carried out the recent attacks were educated people, most are not.
During the early fighting in Pakistan, one of the news teams interviewed 100 people asking a few simple questions.
100% knew America was an evil state of infidels
50% couldn't find America on a globe
15% didn't know the world was round
BTW according to the Koran, the world is flat

Or how about the fact Allah couldn't add.
There are several passages which dictates how a family divide an inheritance.
"When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of
2/3 for the 3 daughters together
1/3 for the parents together
1/8 for the wife
Which equals out to 112% of the estate

Hopelessness - I think secretly most muslim leaders know they are in a helpless situation and push the idea the fualt lies with the infideals much the same way Hitler blamed the poor conditions in gemany on the jews.
The western world has left the middle east far behind in just about every way.
We think unemployment of 6% is near crisis, yet in most parts of the middle east it hangs right around 20%. This makes it very easy for leaders to recruit young men who have nothing else to look forward to, add to that the fact they are brainwashed into beliving killing and dying for Muhammad is a quick way to paradise.

Jihad - Until recently ( 20 years or so ) there were strict guidlines on who could call for a jihad and under what circumstances. Now any fool calling themselves muslim and preaching their way or the highway can call for a holy war and they are surrounded by idiots who don't know any better.

[Silver]

you think this shit between the muskims and christians is propaganda? CRUSADES!!! takes 2 to fight a war, read a history book.

[Frosty]

yea but u dont speak arabic, you don't know that for a fact. the whole thing about killing the "infidels" and shit, that's all the media's doing. Immortal Technique said it best "Jesus is the most quoted profit in the Quran."

That first statement is utter BS. Any language, especially one as widely known as Arabic, can be translated effectively into any other language. If there's a section that is difficult to render, then you can attach a footnote to explain it more fully (example: there is no english word that fully conveys the full force that this arabic word does.... *explanation*). They tell you that it can't be rendered in any other language because it's a convenient way for them to get out of having to explain why the slaughter of non-muslims is ordered. When I interviewed an imam of a local mosque after September 11th, he always used that excuse on the difficult passages instead of explaining what they suppoisedly mean.

The media hasn't told me anything about Islam that I use. I know about Islam because I've studied it myself, not because some TV news channel teaches me things about it. And "infidel" is indeed used in the Qu'ran, despite your misgivings about the media. But wait, the arabic word meaning "someone who does not believe in Allah" can't be rendered into english as "infidel," can it? That's stupid.

Jesus is "quoted" in the Qu'ran, yet much is distorted. Case in point is that the Qu'ran denies that Jesus claimed to be God. It denies that he is the messiah, which Jesus claimed to be. It denies that he claimed to be the final "prophet" of God until the end times. The Qu'ran strips away the main purpose of Jesus' ministry and only uses a couple of good teachings of his to give the book a bit more legitimacy.

I know a lot more about Islam than you seem to think I do....

This post has been edited by Frosty: 08/09/05 10:03am

[Blakjak]

All this talk about the Koran makes me think of how complex the Bible is and how strongly people cling to it. I believe personally there are several factors at work.

First, the growing dependence on middle eastern oil in the 20th century forced the West to take a more active role in the region, which was not warmly received. Sure, it has improved some areas, like Qatar, but our insatiable appetite for oil as a country has not created a healthy diplomacy.

Second, the resurrection of a Jewish state in Palestine which was and still is backed by the United States. Yes, the Jews once occupied the region, but so did Christians, Pagans, and cavemen. This is not to undermine the importance of a Jewish homeland however, which was practically necessitated by intense European anti-Semitism of the early 20th Century and the Holocaust (not to mention guaranteed by the British Balfour Declaration).

Third, the cold war in several ways. The arms race and subsequent proliferation (notably assualt rifles and rpgs) made waging war and terrorism significantly easier. The Cold War was also a massive distraction, during which smaller problems worsened while the United States and the Soviet Union squared off. A good example is the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, a disaster partially due to the fact that it was a neglected problem that grew out of control, and then was underestimated. Lastly, the alliances formed by each country during the war to form blocs has backfired numerous times (Taliban being an excellent example).

Fourth, a persistent lack of directed, focused long-term strategic planning on both economic and military issues from our country's elected officials. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and W have all suffered from this problem in some way. Case in point, Reagan's Star Wars defense programs that flooded Europe with military firepower in and ultimately successful ploy to bankrupt the Soviet Union. We (as in largely my generation) will be paying the economic consequences of the Reagan administration's decision for decades if not longer.

This post has been edited by Blakjak: 08/09/05 5:28pm