You cant kill a feeling Options

[Noodles]

Well we call it a war on terror, but it will never end. terror is a feeling people recieve therefore it wont go away so i believe this is a pointless war, or as I like to call it Vietnam 2. there have been more deaths over there since weve been there. there wouldve been way less if we just kept to our selves. countries need to help themselves before they can help others.

[Genocide Junkie]

First let me say that I hope you don't take our discussion personally as I do not. I won't be calling you names and even though we may not agree I'll still treat you with respect. I enjoy open discussions about things. Now.

I don't believe that the media can turn anyone into squeamish cowards. I believe it is human nature to have a disdain for death and destruction. The U.S. didn't get into WWII because it saw facism on it's door step. They actually were isolationists who only entered the war after being attacked by Japan and then having Germany declare war on us.

Regarding Iraq and 9/11 there was no connection made by Bush before the war. In fact he made sure to clarify that there was no connection between 9/11 and Iraq.

Hellfighter Quote: "Saddam [due to hang very soon] was reluctant to let in UN Inspectors, there was some tension leading to a hasty all systems go into Iraq. "

Sadam was a little more than reluctant to let UN Inspectors in. In fact inspectors were removed due to being denied access in 1998. At this time we mounted an attack for 3 days by air and inspectors were not allowed to return to Iraq for 4 yrs.

Quote From Henry Waxman (D-CA) Sept 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration's policy towards Iraq, I don't think there can be any question about Saddam's conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts.

And now, time has run out. It has been four long years since the last UN weapons inspectors were effectively ejected from Iraq because of Saddam’s willful noncompliance with an effective inspection regime."

For some reason I have a hard time believing in that 4 years Sadam was kniting us a quilt. There were intercepted communications dicussing movement of banned items. In addition there are tapes of Sadam and his buddies discussing weapons, deception, and how to hide their programs.

Everyone points to WMD's and says that because we have not found them we have not met the burden of proof to justify the war. However, the UN resolutions were not mandates for inspectors to scour Iraq to find weapons. They were mandates for Iraq to disclose fully and completely any and all weapons and abilities. The burden was on Iraq to show that they were in fact complying with the mandates. Inspectors were not detectives. Similar cases in South Africa and the Baltics were examples of how to disarm and showing a governments intentions to follow UN resolutions. Sadam did the opposite of this doing his best to deceive the UN and hide programs and intentions.

In my opinion the UN was in danger of (and possibly still is) becoming an irrelevant organization. In Feb'03 Hans Blix reported that Iraq had not accounted for huge stocks of WWMD's and that they had missles that exceeded the limits impossed by the security council. This was in direct defiance of Resolution 1441 which was to be one final last chance for Iraq. This was not the first resolution ignored, nor was it the second. This was the SIXTEENTH resolution broken by Iraq. This was a pattern of behavior and defiance for 12 years. Hardly a rush to action.

How many more resolutions can the UN ignore? They are now showing that they are willing to do nothing yet again. Iran is still in defiance of yet another resolution to hault it's nuclear program. They have been in violation of this for several months and show no signs of ending their defiance. Why would they? The UN has proven that they are unwilling and unable to act.

The next thing everyone is going to say is "Bush lied" to everyone to start a war. There have been three independant bi-partisian councils who have looked into this and all came to the same agreement: "That the intelligence was not manipulated or cohearsd (sp?) to meet specific needs." Others say that the rest of the world was saying our intelligence was wrong. To them I offer these quotes:

French Foreign Minister Dominique De Villepin: "Right Now, Our Attention Has To Be Focused As A Priority On The Biological And Chemical Domains. It Is There That Our Presumptions About Iraq Are The Most Significant. Regarding The Chemical Domain, We Have Evidence Of Its Capacity To Produce VX And Yperite. In The Biological Domain, The Evidence Suggests The Possible Possession Of Significant Stocks Of Anthrax And Botulism Toxin, And Possibly A Production Capability." (United Nations Security Council, 4701st Meeting, New York, 2/5/03)

German Ambassador To The United States Wolfgang Ischinger: "I Think All Of Our Governments Believe That Iraq Has Produced Weapons Of Mass Destruction And That We Have To Assume That They Still Have That They Continue To Have Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We Have Not Yet Seen Evidence Produced By The Inspectors." (NBC's "Today," 2/26/03)

These were not simply made up assumptions. Other nations (the two above) actually opposed deposing Sadam. Yet still confirmed the intelligence. Again I ask "Why would they oppose this if they believe there are weapons there?" I still say it goes back to money.

It amazes me how many people believe that Bush claimed Iraq was connected to 9/11. Or that he lied about the intelligence. It goes to show that the media does have a huge influence on what people think and believe. Perhaps if they looked for something good to report we might have a different perception. And don't tell me they havent done anything right to report on.

Enough of this I'm getting a headache. Time to go shoot some people on the aim server.

Junkie

[Hellfighter]

.............
Enough of this I'm getting a headache. Time to go shoot some people on the aim server.

Junkie

Trust me Junkie my chum, I don't take this personally or any discussion I get into in these forums.
I for one am not getting a headache from this- I look forward to seeing your concise viewpoints in this thread.
If you already know how much I ramble in these forums you know I love debating things and I'm not intentionally out to make enemies- I express my views and see if there's something new I can learn from others, or see if there are plausible disputes to my own point of view. It's a pleasure discussing this issue with you.

Like I said I agree with quite a few of your points. Bush was somewhat of a fall guy for Cheney and other neo-cons, and I think the stubborness trait in his personality was taken advantage of. It didn't help that exiled Iraqi dissidents were swearing there was a threatening WMD program going on in Iraq either. I agree the UN council are too laid back in many cases too ;namely Darfur and Rwanda, and they are corruptable too.


To me, the whole fiasco would have been averted if Sadam simply let in the Inspectors to show nothing was amiss. Instead his 'game of bluff' has been catastrophic. My whole point in this thread of Noodle's is reminding some respondants that the ongoing Afghanistan War was in direct response to 9/11. With the exception of Cheney even most repubs in Bush administration stated that . Like you, I think that it's about time to stop those ongoing misconceptions.

Anyways Junkie I hope we get to chat in a future topic

This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 12/28/06 10:14am