Gun Control, A rational discussion Options

[Bargod]

I thought we'd take this discussion off the pic thread and give it it's own area. I'll start with the quote from Junkie:

Guns don't kill people. Crazy people kill people. With a gun, knife, or a wet noodle people are going to be violent with each other. I have several guns. Most of which have not been fired in years. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to shoot anyone but if someone chooses to come into my house uninvited they very well may get a double barreled chest full. Do I think the average person needs an assault rifle? Hell no. But should they be able to keep guns for defense and hunting purposes? For sure.

I have no bias towards one side or the other and find this an interesting topic. I know many people feel strongly one way or the other. I'm not one of those people.
Having said that, I would like to point out that "Crazy people" don't kill people. The majority of murders are between people who know each other. Guns make murder much easier to accomplish. So, gun owners are often the most successful murderers. This, of course, does not make all gun owners bad people. Anyone can lose their cool and when combined with alcohol can act out in violent ways. This is why it is illegal to carry guns into bars. If some drunk guys get into a fist fight nobody is likely to get killed. If somebody pulls a knife, things are going to get worse. I had two waiters who worked together get into a fight and one hit the other in the face with a pint glass. The glass just missed his carotid artery and his eye. What do you think would have happened if that guy had a gun? The guy who only has a scar on his face would have no face. The buddy of the guy that got hit in the face was close to breaking the attackers neck until I stepped in. What do you think would have happed to that guy after his friends head got blown off. Hell, in his drunken panic he could have shot at me just for being there. These two waiters drank together regularly. They got into a fight over who won the most pool games in the bar they were in before they came to mine. They were betting a nickel a game!!!

I won't say all gun owners are potential murderers, but you are less likely to kill somebody in a murderous rage if you don't have a gun. This is one of the reasons I don't want to have a gun in my house. I like to drink and sometimes I get very pissed off at people.

Guns do protect homeowners. Last year a little old lady living in public housing down the street from me shot and killed an intruder in her home. He was unarmed, but she didn't know that, and he wouldn't have needed a weapon to do bodily harm to her anyway. She's an example of the positive side of gun ownership.

I also don't buy into the "more guns means safer citizens" arguement. Australia has very strict gun control and it's murder rate has gone down. The reason? There are fewer murders involving guns. This means that what could have been a murder is more likely now just an assault.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/06/08/1127171.htm

I personally think Michael Moore is a self agrandizing ego maniac, but he made some decent points in Bowling for Columbine.
It is very unlikely that incident would have been possible if it weren't for the weapons they used. Even if they were limited to revolvers and single shot hunting rifles it would have been a different result.

I don't claim to have any answers, but I'd like to hear other oppinions on this.

[Nothing]

OK, then while were at it, why not put a ban on all the physical sports that can cause major bodily harm and even death. And while where there, why not put a stop to all sword swallowers. And since were there, why not put a stop to all Racecar drivers because of the risk of death. And while were there, why not put a ban on smoking because it causes death to those that smoke and those around it as well. And while were there, lets put a ban on Alchohol because I can guarantee you that Alchohol causes more deaths today than Handguns do. This list can go on and on. The bottom line is that its my right to bear arms. I dont care if you like it or not. Put any restrictions on receiving them you want. Lord knows I dont want criminals having these guns. But the problem is, where is the line drawn? A complete ban on guns is what is wrong to me. A tougher system on those applying for handguns, sure, go right ahead. Try to take my gun from me, you better bring a lunch. My guns are secured and there will be no mistakes in my household. How many times has someone slipped in the shower and cracked their head and died. Shit happens, every day people die from the damnest of things. All your doing is falling into the hands of those that want a complete ban on handguns.

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

OK, then while were at it, why not put a ban on all the physical sports that can cause major bodily harm and even death. And while where there, why not put a stop to all sword swallowers. And since were there, why not put a stop to all Racecar drivers because of the risk of death. And while were there, why not put a ban on smoking because it causes death to those that smoke and those around it as well. And while were there, lets put a ban on Alchohol because I can guarantee you that Alchohol causes more deaths today than Handguns do. This list can go on and on. The bottom line is that its my right to bear arms. I dont care if you like it or not. Put any restrictions on receiving them you want. Lord knows I dont want criminals having these guns. But the problem is, where is the line drawn? A complete ban on guns is what is wrong to me. A tougher system on those applying for handguns, sure, go right ahead. Try to take my gun from me, you better bring a lunch. My guns are secured and there will be no mistakes in my household. How many times has someone slipped in the shower and cracked their head and died. Shit happens, every day people die from the damnest of things. All your doing is falling into the hands of those that want a complete ban on handguns.

Geez, you're right. Some dangerous things are legal. So, let do the flipside. Let's legalize all drugs. Let's do away with speed limits. Stop signs too. People should be able to do whatever they want. Let's stop the regulations on explosives. And why are my rights violated every time I get on a plane? From now on, no more pesky questions or searches.

Obviously, I don't believe in the above. Point is, at some point we set a limit on something. Also, there's one really really big key difference when it comes to guns and all the rest. Guns are made to kill. That's why they exist. Alcohol, drugs, cars, do not exist just to kill what they are pointed at. They are not tools of violence. No army is has ever been equiped with snowboards, Toyota Echos, and a case of beer!

Yes, shit happens. But guns are tools of criminals. They're also can become the tools of fools. Men angry at their wives, drunks or druggies out of control. People who otherwise might be too cowardly to be harmful, become deadly with ease. No freak has ever stabbed 20-30 people to death, or even 5 for that matter, but anyone can become a killing machine with a gun. And again, the only point of a gun, it's existance, is to kill. Humans or animals. So regulate the hell out of it, make sure hunters and collectors can get their guns but try and slow down the idea that everyone and his dog needs one. Anyway, again, all IMO.

And finally, to be clear, no I do not want a ban on all guns. When it comes time to overthrow our governments in 30-40 years, yes, we'll need them!

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

OK, then while were at it, why not put a ban on all the physical sports that can cause major bodily harm and even death. And while where there, why not put a stop to all sword swallowers. And since were there, why not put a stop to all Racecar drivers because of the risk of death. And while were there, why not put a ban on smoking because it causes death to those that smoke and those around it as well. And while were there, lets put a ban on Alchohol because I can guarantee you that Alchohol causes more deaths today than Handguns do. This list can go on and on. The bottom line is that its my right to bear arms. I dont care if you like it or not. Put any restrictions on receiving them you want. Lord knows I dont want criminals having these guns. But the problem is, where is the line drawn? A complete ban on guns is what is wrong to me. A tougher system on those applying for handguns, sure, go right ahead. Try to take my gun from me, you better bring a lunch. My guns are secured and there will be no mistakes in my household. How many times has someone slipped in the shower and cracked their head and died. Shit happens, every day people die from the damnest of things. All your doing is falling into the hands of those that want a complete ban on handguns.

Geez, you're right. Some dangerous things are legal. So, let do the flipside. Let's legalize all drugs. Let's do away with speed limits. Stop signs too. People should be able to do whatever they want. Let's stop the regulations on explosives. And why are my rights violated every time I get on a plane? From now on, no more pesky questions or searches.

Obviously, I don't believe in the above. Point is, at some point we set a limit on something. Also, there's one really really big key difference when it comes to guns and all the rest. Guns are made to kill. That's why they exist. Alcohol, drugs, cars, do not exist just to kill what they are pointed at. They are not tools of violence. No army is has ever been equiped with snowboards, Toyota Echos, and a case of beer!

Yes, shit happens. But guns are tools of criminals. They're also can become the tools of fools. Men angry at their wives, drunks or druggies out of control. People who otherwise might be too cowardly to be harmful, become deadly with ease. No freak has ever stabbed 20-30 people to death, or even 5 for that matter, but anyone can become a killing machine with a gun. And again, the only point of a gun, it's existance, is to kill. Humans or animals. So regulate the hell out of it, make sure hunters and collectors can get their guns but try and slow down the idea that everyone and his dog needs one. Anyway, again, all IMO.

And finally, to be clear, no I do not want a ban on all guns. When it comes time to overthrow our governments in 30-40 years, yes, we'll need them!

Oh, and btw, the stats you brought to the table are obviously cooked up by pro-gun lobbies. The one about 2.5 million "defences" per year saving 400,000 live seems especially ludicrous. I'd like to know what psyhic knows when someone waving a gun prevented a death from occuring.

Stats show less than 200 actually legitimate kills of criminals in self defence per year, yet somehow 400,000 lives are being saved!?! That's utterly perposterous! "Only" 16,000 people in America are murdered in the first place, which is still one of the highest murder rates in the 1st world, so how the hell do guns save 25 times as many people as get killed by them, and you still end up with one of the highest murder rates?

Give me an f'en break. If anyone believes that, I got 400,000 bridges to see you. That was a totally made up number. I suspect the person who chased Big P and his car their friend off was able to claim his saved the lives of everyone in their apartment building. In reality, he saved his car from being stolen. And luckily for Big P, he didn't get spotted and get his head blown off, and his criminal firend and him didn't engage in a shoot-out and hit a pregnant woman passing by.

You see, guns and crime and everything...it's not a black and white issue. Except it is in the American constitution, so unless you change it, yes, it's your right. That doesn't necessarily make things safer or better for society in general though.

Next, we have a table of accidental deaths from 1996 (fairly close year). This is a table compiled from stats by the U.S. Census Bureau! You will notice on the right that the "firearms" accidental deaths is 1,134!!!

http://www.anesi.com/accdeath.htm

I think most of these numbers are completely distorted. I know its not you doing the distortion, but most groups will pick and choose the data just as you mentioned earlier in this topic. Look at this info here and the links where you can go and see the actual numbers yourself.

G

Click on this to see the links to the sites:
http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm

Completely distorted?? For the love of God, did you read the source for the one you just quoted? It was the US census bureau! It was a calculation of ALL accidental deaths! It was a pure, completely objective source, it wasn't even a website talking about guns. Yet you dismissed it outright, and grabbed some stats from a pro gun lobby group. Sorry, I guess this debate is at an end. I obviously can't win when I quote your US Census Bureau and get told the numbers are distorted.