Truth or Dare, Election Ramifications Options

[Nothing]

So go to another government and take their leader out because of what? Someone said they have nukes? Then why arent we in N. Korea now?

I get what you saying Lip, but we already took Saddam out. What else are we there for? To make sure their government doesnt get overthrown? We could be there forever! Thats not our responsiblity. We cant patrol the whole world.

[Lord Lipton]

just cause saddam is gone doesn't mean no one else won't follow his footsteps.

[Nothing]

So what, just occupy another country because of the possibility of another dictator coming into power?

[Hellfighter]

.....Part four live happily ever after. Do you remember our own history? How long did it take to rid ourselves of tyranny and sort out for ourselves how we would live together? Think about it. How many people died from us killing each other? To think that we could demolish a country and rebuild it completely with a self sustaining "free" government in a matter of a few years is mindless.......
Junkie

Well now you're saying repubs are self-admitted bald-faced liars. I don't think so- the neo-cons, yes [now they've been rightfully given the royal boot with 'we the people' voting in the latest election results]. But many repubs are now coming around to the fact that 'staying the course in Iraq needs a deadline> troops serving, maimed, and dying there deserve some clue of an end to the madness.
From day 1 Bush and coy. said as soon as Iraqis wanted US troops out of Iraq- they would leave- of course that melded into 'stay the course', then 'cutting and running are for unpatriotic traitors'.

Now you list a bunch of countries 'needing' the continued presence of US troops for security.
You omit one important fact ;
US troops can patrol the streets and countryside of those nations without IEDs taking them out at a rate of 100 a month.... In those countries you listed there is no insurgency, nor a fire being kindled for a civil war, nor significant bodies of militia that are 'untouchable' for fear of sparking a civil war. Most Iraqis respectfully want to see the US presence diminishing soon.... The war was brought to a halt in those nations.
Do you see a forsee-able end to the war just by 'staying the course'? The move into Iraq was about WMDs... now due to mangled takeover policies, the terrorists opened up a 2nd Front- a diversionary front-> the Talibans are strengthening to retake Afghanistan- maybe because the US news networks stopped covering that theater of war, it misguidingly appears hunky-dory and all is well in Afghanistan- but its not.
You admit too that the US determined its own fate to become one powerful united nation. Keeping the US troops there has now become a policing job- time to let the Iraqis start learning how to police themselves and start determining their fate- see if they can become one nation or figure out if it has to be beyond the British defined maplines of what we now call Iraq. What's wrong with a gradual withdrawal and letting Iraqis start tending to their own garden.

None of it's working out- it started with Rumsfeld grinning after Bahgdad fell- remarking 'I don't see any rioting!' - then it was, take Fallujah and we'll break the insurgency - after[or before] it was force the belligerent militia clerics to back down and violence will decrease.... then beef up security along the borders. None of it has worked for 3 years.... all it's meant so far is 'stay the staus quo'.

You'll see that gradual withdrawal-even in the heat of battle- is the only option- because the endless attrition of US troops isn't worth a no-goal future.




This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 11/09/06 5:25pm

[Nothing]

Hellfighter, you are right on the money man!

[Glyn Gardner]

I totally disagree with you. Our economy has gone to shit since Bush has been in office. Look at the euro vs. the dollar these days. Thats one example. Look at how many companies have closed and all the people that are out of work still now because of it. The economy has only stabled. It has not continuously decreased. Thats it! If you think our economy has increased, what are you basing it on? The alltime low we hit? Do you remember hearing about the surplus the government had? Do you remember getting a refund check from the government. I do. That was stupid to refund that to us. That was his attempt to win over stupid americans for his next election. Our national debt is at an alltime high.

Regarding the exit strategy, All I kept hearing during his running for Presidency on his second term was having an exit strategy. They had an exit strategy that would take time to accomplish. What happened to it? If im right, we have only sent more and more soldiers to Iraq. I dont believe this is comparable to WWII because we were not being told we would be letting their country run themselves and then sending more and more troops. Actually, wasnt the reason we went there to begin with to take our Saddam and find their weapons of mass destruction??? We have no business still being there to run their country. They have their own government in place. We need to let them run it themselves. We cant be the worlds bodyguard on every civil issue in every country in the world.

Hey, I'm no economist, but right now, the DOW is at 12,133.56. I remember hearing the BIG NEWS in the 90's about it breaking 10,000 for the first time. So, if the DOW is UP 20%, then how is our economy in the toilet. Someone who understands economics better than me please explain that to me.



As for the exit strategy thing, I'm getting tired of hearing it. Why are we going to anounce to the world (and the bad guys in Iraq) that this is what we are going to do to leave? If I knew what the US was going to do in order to leave, I'd either a) make sure that didn't happen, or make it happen on MY time schedule so I'd be the strongest guy in Iraq when the US left. What we need to do, is get the PM, who is a Suni, to get people like Al Sader to get onboard with the new government, and quit running private armies with their own agendas. These religious leaders in Iraq don't want a secular government. They want a government run by their own particular brand of Islam. These are the people who need to start playing ball. They have real power and refuse to fully back the government.

[Hellfighter]

Hey, I'm no economist, but right now, the DOW is at 12,133.56. I remember hearing the BIG NEWS in the 90's about it breaking 10,000 for the first time. So, if the DOW is UP 20%, then how is our economy in the toilet. Someone who understands economics better than me please explain that to me.



As for the exit strategy thing, I'm getting tired of hearing it. Why are we going to anounce to the world (and the bad guys in Iraq) that this is what we are going to do to leave? If I knew what the US was going to do in order to leave, I'd either a) make sure that didn't happen, or make it happen on MY time schedule so I'd be the strongest guy in Iraq when the US left. What we need to do, is get the PM, who is a Suni, to get people like Al Sader to get onboard with the new government, and quit running private armies with their own agendas. These religious leaders in Iraq don't want a secular government. They want a government run by their own particular brand of Islam. These are the people who need to start playing ball. They have real power and refuse to fully back the government.

A good indicator of how the economy is fairing in a general way is housing starts; in the US they're going down. Other than that you're right about the economy seeming to be in good shape what with big boom of available jobs lately. Tax cut strategy is apparently paying off too. All the 'wild' stock market figures are saying to me is that the rich are getting richer. Anyway all that good news means inflation rates will likely be going up. Regarding illegals 'taking' jobs- the way I see it is they create better jobs for locals in a round about way.... more 'gathering food' workers means more produced to be shipped- means more processing plants with more skilled labour and more transporters and managers - I think.

Regarding your Iraq comment, you said the key phrase "they want". I believe it's all coming down to that statement. We can't hold their hand forever. Blame who you want for the current mess [I don't hear much about Sadamned not getting much blame-seeing as he could've easily avoided a war by allowing inspectors in to show he in fact had no wmds], but the current status-quo is decimating every innocent in Iraq now. A new strategy is needed - push must now come to shove -the current strategy will not achieve victory. Only Iraqis can do that now I think.

Look at the news today- 150 guys snatched in 20 vans!!!! that's ridiculous - a huge convoy of the enemy freely roaming about and slipping away undetected. Dozens of iraqi police recruits get blasted in a single attack. There is no control the way things are now. Iraqis who want freedom need to face the fact that it'stime to lash back at the enemy. In my opinion they need to undergo a 6 month curfew/lockdown of Baghdad and surrounding area. Let the Iraqi security forces saturate the region and get back confidence. Seems like the rest of Iraq is running 'normal' but the current government in Iraq clearly has no real power if they don't show no-nonsense control in Baghdad. I think it's the iraqi government's fault trying to think there can be a strategy to be all things to all people.... civilised people of various differences will get together and solve their differences but the bands of butchers in fact have free reign to run wild and tear down any civilised progress.

[HammaTime]

It is foolish to hold the Dow up as an indicator of the U.S. economy. The Dow no longer reflects the U.S. economy - it reflects the global economy. This is why housing can be down and many of our remaining home-based manufacturing facilities are being shut down all the while the Dow is booming.

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel-winning economist and Harvard's Linda Blimes have calculated that the true cost of the Iraq war will be US$2 trillion (for our European friends, the US trillion is equivalent to your thousand billions). My eyes gloss over whenever I see a figure like that. To put that into perspective, that is the same as spending US$2.7 million every single day since Jesus walked the earth! http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050682.html

Put it another way, that is a bill that will come due of over US$666,000.00 for every man, woman and child alive in America today!

Perhaps the Dow is up because investors might perceive a slight slowing in the fiscal hemorraging that has become defacto in US policy. Afterall, this election was more about the economy than it was Iraq. People are tired of politicians lining their pockets while building US$232 million bridges to no where. http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...dges/index.html

Exit polls showed that voters were more concerned about the economy than they were about the Iraq war or terrorism. Data also shows that the growth in personal income varied widely throughout the U.S. If you lived in Wyoming, Arizona or Nevada, your average personal income went up almost 50% and, in turn, you most likely voted for Republicans. If you lived in Michigan, Ohio or New Hampshire, you didn't do so well and you most likely voted for Democrats. http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20533

It's the economy, stupid! And most of us are still mighty concerned.

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

The fact of the matter is that the economy is in fantatstic shape. It been as good as it has ever been since the founding of the country. The liberal media is what keeps telling us that it is so bad. Why? Because the Elephants are in charge. As soon as the Democrats are in power you'll start to hear that the economy is in great shape. This reminds me of when Reagan and Bush were in office and all the media started on about how homeless people are everywhere and the economy is so bad, yadda yadda, yadda. After Clinton was elected, like magic, the homeless "problem" disappeared and the economy was great.

This is why housing can be down and many of our remaining home-based manufacturing facilities are being shut down all the while the Dow is booming.
------------- The housing boon has been on 10 year all time high, just because it has slowed back to normal does not mean the economy is dead.


Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel-winning economist and Harvard's Linda Blimes have calculated that the true cost of the Iraq war will be US$2 trillion (for our European friends, the US trillion is equivalent to your thousand billions). My eyes gloss over whenever I see a figure like that. To put that into perspective, that is the same as spending US$2.7 million every single day since Jesus walked the earth! http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050682.html
Put it another way, that is a bill that will come due of over US$666,000.00 for every man, woman and child alive in America today!
-----------I've seen the same numbers and style portayed when we ran huge deficit in fighting the 'cold war'. Funny thing, but after we won the war and the economy picked up and we cut defense spending, none of us had to right a check for $1/2Million dollars.


Perhaps the Dow is up because investors might perceive a slight slowing in the fiscal hemorraging that has become defacto in US policy. Afterall, this election was more about the economy than it was Iraq. People are tired of politicians lining their pockets while building US$232 million bridges to no where. http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...dges/index.html
---------Actually the Dow will now start to slide. This is because there is clear historical records that show the investors do not like a mixed Presidency and Congress (refering to parties here). The economy does much better when either party holds both positions.


Exit polls showed that voters were more concerned about the economy than they were about the Iraq war or terrorism. Data also shows that the growth in personal income varied widely throughout the U.S. If you lived in Wyoming, Arizona or Nevada, your average personal income went up almost 50% and, in turn, you most likely voted for Republicans. If you lived in Michigan, Ohio or New Hampshire, you didn't do so well and you most likely voted for Democrats. http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20533

--------Interesting. However those same states generaly lean more towards the parties they voted for. Michigan, Indiana and Ohio have been blistered by the floundering Automotive industries. As much as 30% or more of their economies are dependent on the car.

It's the economy, stupid! And most of us are still mighty concerned.

------- Yes, it is, or at least perceived to be.

[Kleerance]

About the economy guys:

I work as an equity sales person and follow the economy very closely. There will always be different opinions, and if you are right and willing to bet on your opinion, you will earn money!



Am I bull on behalf of US? I'm sorry guys I am not! First of all US has a tremendous trade deficit:(6% of GDP - this is serious!)



The fact is that China(mainly) and some other Asian countries have been buying these bonds to keep their own currencies low to sell more cheap products to US citizens. This is borrowed money which have to be paid back. (The idea with loans!) This can't go on forever, you can't fool ALL the people ALL the time. US is just printing up more and more money (bonds) to consume more and more products from Asia. My prediction is that USD will have a tremedous plunge because of this deficit - because there is no way they will be able to pay back. The currency is the "price" on its country and US is in serious debt-trouble. When will this happen? I think soon, maybe a year or so, but I really don't know. China is the key here, when they want to sell US bonds or "justify" their portfolio as they have hinted - thunder breaks out.



Also - as mentioned earlier in this thread - the housing market is weakening. This is NOT a good economic long-term sign for the economy. Think for yourselves guys. The feelgood factor is better when you know that your house you paid 100.000.$ is worth 200.000$ instead of 50.000$ even though you not gonna sell anyway.

[Old Man Mike]

That Deficit vs GDP looks like doom - UNTIL you add the most current information for 2006:

For 2006 the US will be under 3%, primarily due to the TAX CUTS which drastically increased growth and tax revenues.

Meanwhile France, Germany, Greece and Italy are all expected to exceed the 3% GDP, primarily due to a faltering economic expansion and rising social security spending.


Old Man Mike

[-priority(+)target-]

Interesting scope of topic guys, jesus lol… I think we will need 2 seperate topics for this? or do we... Global Economy and Modern Warfare... ah I think there is a thesis coming...

[Kleerance]

That Deficit vs GDP looks like doom - UNTIL you add the most current information for 2006:

For 2006 the US will be under 3%, primarily due to the TAX CUTS which drastically increased growth and tax revenues.

[/color]

[color="#ff6666"]Nope. US GDP is about 13.600 billion $, trade deficit is ca 800 USD that gives 5,88%. Tax cuts is irrelevant in this matter - its just boosting private consuption (which is good for other matters)





My concern is the Dollar which is our world most important currency. When/If it cracks down you may have a world recession.

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/merk/2006/1114.html

[Glyn Gardner]

Kleerance, I find it funny that you say the dollar will drag down the world economy. But, a few posts back you said China has bought up all those bonds which in the end will weaken the USD. Plus, I was in Europe when they went to the Euro. I never understood how the DM could be at roughly 1.5 to the dollar, then mix in the economies of Italy, Poland, and Greece, and all of the sudden the Euro is STRONGER than the USD? I just wonder if this was somehow artaficial. Again, I'm no economist, but it seems like the poorer economies of these countries would have dragged on the stronger economies.

[steel]

We can discuss the stock market and GDP but it doesn't change what's happening to middle and lower-class american's real money. In other words, isn't it true that whether each of us consider the economy up or down really boils down to the old addage, "Where you stand depends on where you sit?"

So that, personally, I make well above the average annual salary. Yet I do not make enough to have ever gotten a Bush tax cut. My company has not given raises in 6 years, yet every normal household expense has increased. Every year, my medical insurance benefits have decreased while the amount I have to kick in to have them has increased. I'm nearing retirement, yet my company has now abolished the pension plan as well as retirement medical insurance. My 401K is worth half what it was 10 years ago, even though I have my contribution to it maxed out.

My friends and family, most of whom have a much lower household income and kids still in school are feeling the stress of all this much worse than I am. And they are worried about losing their jobs and very few jobs of equal pay available. I don't know how they are holding things together, honestly. I see the stress of it in their faces and hear it in their voices everyday.

In our personal pocketbooks, the economy is much worse than it was 10 years ago. The stock market being up and so forth bring a ray of hope that perhaps things may change for the little guy, but so far, we're simply not seeing it.

As for the war in Iraq, everyone's waiting on the Baker report, both dems and reps. That's the right thing to do at this point. And both dems and reps know there has to be a change, some way to reduce American involvement while not adding to the destabilization of the area any further. The issues are very complicated and so will be the solutions. Hellfighter I agree with most everything you have said about this. And the bottom line is that none of our elected officials are going to be able to put this in a neat 30-second sound-bite for the evening news.