The war in Iraq, Justified? Options

[Kleerance]

I just wonder what you North Americans feel about the war in Iraq.

Do you think it's right? (why/why not?)

This war is expensive for US. How much are you willing to sacrifice from a domestic perspective (money and casualties) to win.

Other strong opinions...?

I am just curious.......

[pezking]

Personally, I don't think it's America's job to be the world police. If we are going to take on that role, why not go to Africa and clean all that crap up. There is a holocaust going on where hundreds of thousands of people are being exterminated and we're not doing much about it. Why aren't we doing much about it? Well, the Islamic leaders and politicians in Sudan have names and locations to several terrorists in the Middle East that we're trying to find, so basically we're turning a blind eye to what's happening in exchange for information.

I'm all for helping people and other countries but at some point we need to finish helping our own country. New Orleans and surrounding area is still in shambles. We have military veterans that aren't being taken care of. Our elderly are getting screwed over by the health care companies. All and all, everything boils down to the dollar. War makes money... atleast it makes money for people with bloody hands.

[Major.Pain]

Nobody likes the war over there. Hell, nobody liked any of the wars we were involved in. Fact is, this is just like high school. Remember the bullies? Anyone that doesn't either was one themself or was just oblivious to what was going on. Point is, someone has to stand up to them. Any other country want to step up to the plate?

*silence*

Thought so.



-Pain

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Personally, I don't think it's America's job to be the world police. If we are going to take on that role, why not go to Africa and clean all that crap up. There is a holocaust going on where hundreds of thousands of people are being exterminated and we're not doing much about it. Why aren't we doing much about it? Well, the Islamic leaders and politicians in Sudan have names and locations to several terrorists in the Middle East that we're trying to find, so basically we're turning a blind eye to what's happening in exchange for information.

I'm all for helping people and other countries but at some point we need to finish helping our own country. New Orleans and surrounding area is still in shambles. We have military veterans that aren't being taken care of. Our elderly are getting screwed over by the health care companies. All and all, everything boils down to the dollar. War makes money... atleast it makes money for people with bloody hands.

The Cole, American Embassies, Twin Towers 9-11....Never Forget.....Pezking has....So sad.

This post has been edited by Cpt. Snot Rocket: 08/14/07 9:43am

[Capt. Andtennille]

There are basically two groups:

The intelligent, logical thinkers realize that it it necessary to get the job done today because tomorrow it will be much more difficult. (Are you listening Iran?). They have read history and are very familiar with Neville Chamberlain. The big beef that these people have with the war is that we won't take off the gloves and just win the damn thing.

The others hate George Bush and/or America and are willing, no rooting, for us to lose in order to hang the failure around the neck of the Republican party. Politics are more important that the good of the country. They actually believe that the Tet Offensive in Viet Nam was a military defeat for the US because the Drive-By-Media told them so. Thier glory days were protesting that war and now they are trying to re-live them.

Success in Iraq is bad for the left, so they are actively pursuing failure.

[shazbot]

Wow Kleerance tough subject to bring up - kudos to you. My opinion on this matter has changed only slightly over the years. Yes, Saddam was an a-hole, yes he invaded a neighboring country but that being said he provided stability to a region of the world that so desperately needs it. All George has done is create rampant anti-American feelings in moderate Islamic communities and "justified" radical Islamic actions on the "street". I have not forgotten 9/11, the USS Cole, the African Embassies, London Tube Bombings , the list goes on. However i also realize that through his/our actions we have created an environment that has made it possible for many many more attacks to occur. They don't hate us because of our freedoms, the hate us because we have established bases in their most holy of places (Saudi Arabia), we have sponsored their most hated rivals (Israel, the Saudi Royal Family, the Shah of Iran). When everyone hates you, don't you think it wise to look into your own actions once in a while?

I am not a bleeding heart liberal, i am just a middle of the road American who realizes that we have created a future for our kids that is much more unsafe than it was for me growing up (mind you i grew up in the middle of the cold war near a top 10 top ICBM target ). Actually I have developed a HATRED for all things Islam, peace loving religion my ass! Obviously, like many Americans i see both sides of the arguement.

One question Pain, who's the bully in this case?

My two cents.

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Wow Kleerance tough subject to bring up - kudos to you. My opinion on this matter has changed only slightly over the years. Yes, Saddam was an a-hole, yes he invaded a neighboring country but that being said he provided stability to a region of the world that so desperately needs it. All George has done is create rampant anti-American feelings in moderate Islamic communities and "justified" radical Islamic actions on the "street". I have not forgotten 9/11, the USS Cole, the African Embassies, London Tube Bombings , the list goes on. However i also realize that through his/our actions we have created an environment that has made it possible for many many more attacks to occur. They don't hate us because of our freedoms, the hate us because we have established bases in their most holy of places (Saudi Arabia), we have sponsored their most hated rivals (Israel, the Saudi Royal Family, the Shah of Iran). When everyone hates you, don't you think it wise to look into your own actions once in a while?

I am not a bleeding heart liberal, i am just a middle of the road American who realizes that we have created a future for our kids that is much more unsafe than it was for me growing up (mind you i grew up in the middle of the cold war near a top 10 top ICBM target ). Actually I have developed a HATRED for all things Islam, peace loving religion my ass! Obviously, like many Americans i see both sides of the arguement.

One question Pain, who's the bully in this case?

My two cents.

LOL!! Unbelievable! Saddam provided peace and stability and George Bush is the Bully!?!?!?!?
Too funny!

Maybe those that were raped and murdered in Kuwait might have something to say about Saddam's 'middle east peace plan'. How about the 300,000 bodies in northern Iraq during Saddam's 'ethnic cleansing stability plan'.

Isreal really enjoyed all those "death to Israel" speeches also, they obviously never took that to heart. All political gamesmenship, right? Even when the 'scud missles of peace and prosperity' were launched at them, the Israel knew they were just filled with 'good fortune' cookies.





This post has been edited by Cpt. Snot Rocket: 08/14/07 12:02pm

[Major.Pain]

One question Pain, who's the bully in this case?

My two cents. [/quote]



Why, the terrorists are the bullies sir! If anyone thinks for one minute that they will leave the rest of the world (yes, the whole world) alone if we pull out...then get ready for reality.



They do not hate us for being over there. They hate us because we exist, period. Our freedom is what they can't tolerate and want to control. They are, after all, the ultimate control freaks.



-Pain

[UNDEAD 1]

i have always believed iraq is a key component of the middle east, seperating iran from others is good imho . i believe saddam was funneling billions of dollars to terrorist groups all over the world (besides the drug trade .the day they sent the wmd guys in there to find the "nukes" i remember thinking to myself "wow,you know,if i was saddam i would go out in the middle of no where and bury all weopons,chemical,biological etc.. and shut down the factories. when they attack me it shore would make them look stupid" and then it happend. coming from a guy who is NOT a bush advocate or anyone in his cabinet for that matter, i believe that there is a reason were there and i dont want to know all the details. for the record- we wouldnt be in this f***ing situation if our government did something about these KNOWN terrorists prior to bush ever being in office-THIS IS A TIRED TIRED SUBJECT!



the pc ,bully screamers wont be happy till a nuke or dirty bomb goes off in your city -then youll be screaming bloody murder ,wont you . its a double edged sword. they said they were going to hit them in their wallets-THEY DID,end of story. we are suffering CASULTIES IN A CITY BATTLE at the moment. how many CITY battles through out history have been succesful? if there is one let me know ? they are trying to get the government on their feet to police their own country and it would shore be a shame if we listend to all the cry babies and up and pulled our guys out to only have the whole region be taken over by more terrorist nations ,that would shorely prove that all the amricans that have died -DIED FOR NO REASON , let alone how many amarican lives will be lost in the evac as what happend in vietnam.





also concerning the wmd teams - my opinion only- in ww2 hitler allowed red cross to openly tour his jewish prison camps because they had reports of jew slaughters and yet they found nothing till the war was almost over. same thing ! if the government has time they can hide anything.



these are only opinions from a non republican.





This post has been edited by UNDEAD 1: 08/14/07 12:37pm

[shazbot]

LOL!! Unbelievable! Saddam provided peace and stability and George Bush is the Bully!?!?!?!?

I'm literally loughing out loud!!!!!! Too funny!!!!! I can't take this...my gut hurts!

Peace may have been the wrong word selection, but stability yes. Answer this, Iraq before the "liberation", 600,000 civilians killed by Saddam? No wait, that is after the "liberation". Safe haven for Al-qaida before "liberation"? Nope another result of the invasion. Saddam hated Osama, and his ilk. Saddam was not a not a secular man, he may have been an asshole but he kept a country thrown together by the Treaty of Versailles in balance, therefor the region. To use cold war speak, domino-effect. We have made it possible for the terrorists to spread throughout the region. Countries are turning a blind eye to their presence within their borders.

Bully 1.a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

Only the smaller weaker people are fighting back now and they don't fight fair.

At no point did i say that i think we deserved being attacked, only that we are not blameless and it's crazy/dangerous not to figure out why we are hated by so many. Sorry to hear that your laughing out loud Snot and yes Bush a bully, i'd say about 65% of the population agree.

Told you Kleer, brave subject to bring up.

[pezking]

Personally, I don't think it's America's job to be the world police. If we are going to take on that role, why not go to Africa and clean all that crap up. There is a holocaust going on where hundreds of thousands of people are being exterminated and we're not doing much about it. Why aren't we doing much about it? Well, the Islamic leaders and politicians in Sudan have names and locations to several terrorists in the Middle East that we're trying to find, so basically we're turning a blind eye to what's happening in exchange for information.

I'm all for helping people and other countries but at some point we need to finish helping our own country. New Orleans and surrounding area is still in shambles. We have military veterans that aren't being taken care of. Our elderly are getting screwed over by the health care companies. All and all, everything boils down to the dollar. War makes money... atleast it makes money for people with bloody hands.

The Cole, American Embassies, Twin Towers 9-11....Never Forget.....Pezking has....So sad.

That's a low blow man. I never once said anything about us being in Iraq or Afghanistan, whether I was for or against it. I have friends over there now and I lost friends in both the towers and the Pentagon. All I was saying was that it sucks that we seem to be one of the only countries involved in all this stuff and it's a shame that there are other attrocities happening that we can't take care of. Meanwhile, our own country is sliding down the shit hole because we're so focused on what's happening everywhere else. Fix the immigration issue, help the homeless, help the veterans, teach our children.

Still pissed off that you even went there Snot.

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Personally, I don't think it's America's job to be the world police. If we are going to take on that role, why not go to Africa and clean all that crap up. There is a holocaust going on where hundreds of thousands of people are being exterminated and we're not doing much about it. Why aren't we doing much about it? Well, the Islamic leaders and politicians in Sudan have names and locations to several terrorists in the Middle East that we're trying to find, so basically we're turning a blind eye to what's happening in exchange for information.

I'm all for helping people and other countries but at some point we need to finish helping our own country. New Orleans and surrounding area is still in shambles. We have military veterans that aren't being taken care of. Our elderly are getting screwed over by the health care companies. All and all, everything boils down to the dollar. War makes money... atleast it makes money for people with bloody hands.

The Cole, American Embassies, Twin Towers 9-11....Never Forget.....Pezking has....So sad.

That's a low blow man. I never once said anything about us being in Iraq or Afghanistan, whether I was for or against it. I have friends over there now and I lost friends in both the towers and the Pentagon. All I was saying was that it sucks that we seem to be one of the only countries involved in all this stuff and it's a shame that there are other attrocities happening that we can't take care of. Meanwhile, our own country is sliding down the shit hole because we're so focused on what's happening everywhere else. Fix the immigration issue, help the homeless, help the veterans, teach our children.

Still pissed off that you even went there Snot.

I meant no personal offense. This is a debate. The subject is the War in Iraq. I happen to believe that the war on terror has everything to do with Iraq, Iran, Afgh, Pakistan, ect..



Therefore when some one says we should stay home and fix a city that was destroyed by a hurricane when it was purposely built below sea level, screams of someone who doesn't get the fact that people are trying to kill and destroy us. Hence my comments about 9/11, ect.



Your point about Sudan is actually fantastic. Should the US police the world? I used to think not, but when Islamic fundementalists move into a country and begin wholesale slaughter of the "christian" population, I think the US should step up, in some way. The UN, as it proved with Saddam, is completely inept to deal with these issues.

And you are absolutely right! Where are the rest of countries in world in stepping up and helping? GB, Canada, Australia, and Poland are the only other countries that want to help.



Question Pez: Since your against any US "policing action". Would it be consistant to say that you were against declaring war on Germany in 1941, and Germany in 1917, Against the Korean War, Against the Vietnam war and Against the First Gulf War?

This post has been edited by Cpt. Snot Rocket: 08/14/07 2:30pm

[pezking]

Again, I'm not "against" helping people out. I was just pointing out, why the hell are we always the ones going in to help out countries? Where is everyone else? I know we don't do it alone, so I'm not trying to piss off anyone outside of the US. Just seems that we foot large amounts of the bill or we pay with blood. I know that freedom isn't free. I understand that we have to stay in Iraq to prevent Iran from becoming the all-powerful tyrant of the Middle East.

I assuming that you think that I'm some tree hugging, left-wing, democrat or something because I pointed out the Darfur thing? I am not.

So WWII, Germany and Japan declared war against us. The US sat back while Europe begged for us to get involved. We started getting putting production lines into effect incase we did go, but from reading FDR and Eisenhower's biographies, we didn't intend on going to war. We only went after Pearl Harbor.

Korea and Vietnam, yeah... I wasn't around yet so my opinion's are very hindsighted. I don't think we should've gone to war over communism. But yes, it help people from being opressed by another group... but somehow the French got us into another fine mess and left once we took the ball. We pretty much rode both of those wars completely solo.

Gulf War, Saddam was messed up. Yes, I agreed w/that war competely because he invaded another country. We had international support on that one as well.

So what today's war comes down to is... should Saddam have been taken out of power? Yes, but it should've happened years ago during the first Gulf war. Are there WMDs over there? I doubt it, although that whole term is subjective so anyone debating that could easily prove that mustard gas is a WMD. Could Saddam have taken out the US w/one of his missles? No way. Did he provide any threat against us? No. But yeah, he messed up and had to be punished. I'm not against what we're doing over there and I completely support all the troops over there.

My original point was that there are so many bad things happening all over the world and other countries are still looking at us to take care of the problem. They hate us, yet they want us to handle the world's problem and pay for them. That's what pisses me off. All and all, I'm totally for having troops over there because they keep the terrorist localized and hey!, the US hasn't had an attack on it's soil since we went over there. It does upset me that my fellow countrymen and women are dying so that Iraqi's can be free, mostly because they don't appreciate it. I don't think they really want freedom. They smile and wave to the troops, then burn our flags and set up roadside bombs behind their backs.

[Capt. Andtennille]

Part of the problem is that the DBM (Drive By Media) is telling you the story they want you to hear. I think that as a whole, the Iraqis are very grateful for all we've done. If they could be sure that the left wouldn't force us to surrender and pull out prematurely they would be able to show even more support. As it sits right now, they need to keep thier heads down because if they support us openly and we bail on them, there will be hell to pay when the islamofascists take over.



As far as us doing everything solo, that's because we can get it done. Very few other countries have the balls to do the right thing.



As far as everyone hating us. BFD. Most of this is not actually hate, but envy. If we were everything those bastards say we are we would own the middle east and do with it as we please. Same with most of Europe. When Germany invaded France, thier intent was to make that territory thiers. We didn't take possession of Germany when we defeated them, we rebuilt thier country and got them headed into basically the right direction.



It's easy for all the wanna-be's of the world to sit back in the safety net we provide, using the technology we invented, and badmouth us. Who cares what they think? Right and wrong don't change based on world opinion. I'm sure that many of them are fine countries, but when they get into a jam I don't think France is coming to the rescue. How many countries sent teams to New Orleans? How much money did Belgium send? They need us and can't survive without us. That makes them feel (rightfully) inadequate and pissed off.



Thanks God Canada is finally turning around. I thought we might lose them to the other side for a while.

[shazbot]

I find this an interesting addition to the discussion. Interview with our current VP after Gulf War I.


www.schreerdesign.com/dsdtransfer/cheney.mp3