The war in Iraq, Justified? Options

[Hellfighter]

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Blah Blah Blah

Rommell may have indeed have a noble pofession but he's the one who made the post with the anti-Bush graphic. No Fascism, Marxism, Communism = No War. IIRC there has never been a case where one democracy has declared war on another.

United States vs. GB /Canada- War of 1812

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His post implies that the whole mess was started by Bush. You are making basically the same assertion. Bush should have known about it in the 10 months he was in office but Clinton gets a pass because he only had 8 years. Get real.

When it came down to it- even after full access granted to UN Inspectors, Bush CHOSE to up the ante by making the final case to go to war coming down to Saddam stepping down from power and leaving Iraq in a set time period- Yes he started that War. The mess came when we found out that after the military did their job smashing their way to Baghdad, Bush's admin in fact had no plan to fill the inevitable political void in Iraq-so yes there is a strong asserttion he started the mess.
Haven't you followed the post 9-11 enquiries that showed Bush had a good idea something was coming but did el Zippo and CHOSE to ignore the threat. Look through these links if you want to be objectively informed;
http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/911bush.html

I'm well past the age where I can sign up for service, but If the position that you're espousing prevails I will be heavily involved fighting the islomofascists here at home. Right now I'm just happy we get to fight them there.

Well it goes without saying anyone but a traitor wouldn't fight an enemy in their neighbourhood.
So really then you aren't fighting them directly-so that's why you're happy 'we're' fighting them there. I doubt the soldiers are too happy not seeing an end in the near future despite military successes in the field.
-secondly those 'al quaeda crossing the Syrian border are cannon fodder-merely diversionary elements. Al quaeda aren't street fighters-they'd get their arses handed to them. The real 9-11 type killers must be waiting in the wings in their targeted country like sleeper cells. Do you really believe a total victory in Iraq miraculously ceases any terrorist threat thereafter?

I have nothing against either of you personally, but I'm really sick of you guys from other countries telling us how to run ours while at the same time being enjoying the fruits of our success and safety we provide.

Once again- 70% of Americans are against this Bush adventure into Iraq. So you can be sick all you want but remind yourself you are in the minority at home too regarding your opinion. People with the anti- Iraq war sentiment are not generally America haters -so don't confuse yourself- they are against Bush and Cheney's disastrous policies. And get off the high horse about safety 'we provide'.... I'm the first one to blast anyone here who rants anti-america, but realize USA and its chums need each other. If China/Russia or N.Korea are ever in a position to make their move to use force, the USA can only go so far alone militarily against other massive superpowers..

Another thing. I wouldn't feel like an ant in ANYONE's presence. If I met Rommel I may indeed be duly impressed by him as a man and by his accomplishments. That would in no way diminish my view of myself.

Yes you'd be impressed. The ant thing was to let you know he has a face and doesn't need putting down- He's bashing Bush, not your country.

people might think back to Rome and how well a rublic worked for them dot dot dot

Just like communism, the Roman system was really only ideal for the priviledged class. Everyone one else were mere minions that had to keep in line or else; 25 year obligatory service in a Roman legion not my idea of working out well either.








This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 08/15/07 5:12pm

[Rommel]

LOL.



When Norway gets into trouble I'll be sure to call my congressman and tell them to stay out of it.

I know you will, i dont think we will get in to trouble. LOL



This post has been edited by Rommel: 08/15/07 5:35pm

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

[quote name='Rommel' date='08/15/07 5:33pm' post='157595'] [quote name='Capt. Andtennille' post='157517' date='08/15/07 8:41am'] [quote name='Rommel' post='157513' date='08/15/07 7:22am']

I know you will, i dont think we will get in to trouble. LOL

[/quote]





Ummm. Excuse me. WWII? http://www.nuav.net/weserubung2.html

[Axel]

if they followed the money and all ties lead to iraq ,then they would partly be responsible for 9/11.

Quite the contrary, Osama bin Laden is actually a Saudi, not an Iraqi and the funding for 9/11 was Saudi as well...... So, why are we in Iraq? And to blk I think it was or whoever said something about who we bought oil from, I wasn't mentioning the physical oil I was saying that the oil was traded with US dollars since the occupation. And to Rommel, I support Dubya and any other president (as long as they aren't a female and/or of the left wing) because that is probably the toughest job in the world.

[Gen.Sam]

Okay I'll lay this down straight, if any of you think

A. Bush is to blame for 9/11
B. The war is to try and keep Bush in office
C. We're assholes who want to bully everyone

If you chose any of those YOUR AN IDIOT.

The reason we're over there is because they're a threat to most countries with their "invisible" tactics of suicide bombing, for 9/11, for the hostages slaughtered for simply doing their jobs, for the london bombings, and for their torturing innocent civilians and killing them.

War is not a pretty place, never will be, especially now more then ever as technoligy increases we can just expect to see more and more war.

I personally think that what the first class countries need to do is band up in peace and instead of researching for war research for the final frontire, SPACE. Instead of the war on terror we need to use U.S funds for space travel. I mean think of it, finding other alien beings would be awesome, but instead we must fight, why?..

[Rommel]

LOL.



No War = No Freedom. The islomofascists have been attacking EVERYONE for centuries. George Bush finally had enough when they struck the Twin Towers. Something like 93% of the world's conflicts involve Muslims, but Rommel (sitting in Norway of all places) blames George Bush. When Norway gets into trouble I'll be sure to call my congressman and tell them to stay out of it.

Do you know that one Norwegian special soldier was killed in Afghanistan. Do you know there are a family without a father like a lot of US family and Afghanistan family.
Pray to God that there are not are more killed in the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. What will happen when the your/our soldier go home? Will there be peace? The only i know is that Saddam and his staff is gone.





I don't like war at all

http://www.nuav.net/weserubung2.html[/url]

Do you know your history?



This post has been edited by Rommel: 08/16/07 6:49am

[Capt. Andtennille]

I don't like war at all

On this we agree. I don't know anyone who likes war, it's just that somethimes the ramifications of not being willing to fight when necessary are much worse than the war itself.



I would hate to kill a burgular in my home, but I would do it in a second to keep them from harming my family. The John Stuart Mill quote in my sig sums up my feelings on this whole matter entirely.

What kind of "man" has nothing they consider worth fighting for?



If the islamofascists had been content to target Europe and the middle east, then the U.S. would probably have not gotten involved. When they came to our shores and attacked us here they got a bit more than they bargained for. Since they are only able to function with state support, George Bush made it very clear that countries harboring terrorists are no different than the terrorists themselves. If Norway (for example) were to decide that it's OK for terrorists to train there and make plans to attack the U.S., I would fully support attacking Norway. We had all the authority we needed to attack Iraq because of the dozens of UN resolutions they were violating from the first gulf war, thier involvement with the sponsorship of terrorism was just the spark.



BTW, after further consideration, I will still support helping Norway out should they ever need it. Sort of like an intervention with a friend whos' on drugs...

[shazbot]

I have read a whole bunch on this subject and with an open mind to both sides.

1. I dont think Bush is to blame for 9/11. He may have ignored the data but a determined enemy will find a way. Was Clinton to blame? No more than Bush.

2. I dont think Bush was in bed with the Saudi Royal Family or the Bin Ladens (roger Moore can choke on a ham sandwich for all i care).

3. Saddam was contained. He had no Air Force and any ground forces were bottled up in his sovereign borders. Correct if i'm wrong, but weren't UN inspectors in Iraq for the entire time between Gulf War I and II?

4. Yes, Saddam was an idiot who killed many of his "own" people. Is that worth going to war for? We'll it was after the story changed about the WMD's. Have we attacked Iran, China or Sri Lanka? Countries where human rights are completely ignored. Obviously the answer is no.

5. Is the "liberal/DBM" media only showing us what they want us to see? Maybe, but it sure is hard to ignore the fact that suicide bombings kill hundreds of "freed" Iraqi citizens on a weekly sometimes daily basis.

6. As i posted in the audio clip of VP Cheney, the administration knew it would be a mess to enter Baghdad, but they still did it and surprise surprise - civil war. One of the world's largest standing armies (Iraq) is defeated then we give them nothing to do. Well now they're unemployed, armed and pissed what good could come of that?

Bottom line - the war is a mistake with no end in sight. All it has done is polarized the world - islam versus christianity (crusade in Bush's words). Of course i support the troops, i just don't support the git in charge of them.

Lets keep this discussion free of personal attack, the question was asked by Kleerance and all we are doing is answering it.

Shaz

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

I would hate to kill a burgular in my home, but I would do it in a second to keep them from harming my family. The John Stuart Mill quote in my sig sums up my feelings on this whole matter entirely.

------------------

The FULL UNEDITED quote is this...

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their own free choice--is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.
John Stuart Mill, "The Contest in America," pp. 208-09, in John Stuart Mill, Dissertations and Discussions (Boston: William V. Spencer, 1867).

Heavy reading, but it means much more than the "simplified version". Especially of note is the part cut out that states "When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people."

Also of note is the part that states "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself." It could be argued that part of the quote UNDERMINES the justification for war being built upon fear of WMD's, or the "we have to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here" agument since, boiled down, that is about people concerned about nothing more than their personal safety, and thus cheerleading others to do the real fighting while they shop at the mall in peace.

Anyway, John's saying that there are wars worth fighting for as long as strong moral reasons exist and are the prime factor, and those people doing the fighting believe in them. Does Iraq qualify? Was the primary justification to allow the Iraqi's to be free? Would the American people sign on for any war based solely on Mill's theories?

I wish I could have found even more about what Mill was talking about before and after this except. He was an interesting thinker and a "classic liberal", which today it a rare thing indeed. I suppose a classic liberal today is referred to as a libertarian.

Anyway, here's another quote...

"All attempts by the State to bias the conclusions of its citizens on disputed subjects are evil."

Hmmm.

[Gen.Sam]

The reason we dont go to war with Iran, China, and Sri Lanka is that we'd be way over our heads, China, and Iran and god only knows Sri Lanka probaly has nukes by now think of what would happen to the US? We'd get nuked so many times we'd be wiped out. The war isnt a mistake otherwise there'd me more terrorists in the US then their already are and more suicide bombings in our land. Thats another reason they're over there to contain as many terrorists and kill them for the dont come over to US and bomb the hell out of us like they've been doing to london.

[Barkmann]

Gen.Sam you do know US have nukes too right?

Even if someone got off a nuke in the US, the US would just send more nukes there way also, by air land or sea. Too maney ppl with too maney nukes.

[*Triggahappy13*]

I don't see how Bush is getting balmed for 9/11, because im pretty sure he didn't just tell people to fly planes into buildings...there was sadyly nothing he could do about it at the time

[Gen.Sam]

Ya bark but using nukes could start a nuke war/ww3, Using nukes comes at a price, you must understand that.

If its anyones fault its the secritary of defenses fault they had lines ringing all over and pleanty of intell to suggest this happening from one of our allied groups in Iraq or afganistan, shortly afterwards they were destroyed sadly. I watched the 9/11 documentary that was 2 hours long, I believe its the truth.

[The-Blind-Norwegian]

BTW, after further consideration, I will still support helping Norway out should they ever need it. Sort of like an intervention with a friend whos' on drugs...

LMAO

[Barkmann]

yes i know that