Gun Control, A rational discussion Options

[Hellfighter]

Ouch. The whole point of this was to have a debate. I like debating. I like arguing. I'll argue points I know are wrong or that I actually disagree with because to me it's fun.
I was actually think about making a forum room for debates that I come up with. No lie. I just thought of that while washing the dishes like an hour ago.

Same here on your points BG.... I find these debates informative - no matter who rambles off topic just like people suffer reading through my posts. Some others here may not want to visit every 2 months at all if they find these varying viewpoints so stressful or beyond comprehension of what a debate is all about -various views and informative suggestions.

From what I remember where you're living cowdoc guns in rural areas are a natural 'asset' to own. Gun control is a huge issue to deal with in urban areas/cities regarding gangs and organised crime , and loose cannon individuals-> that's the different perspective to what your angle is. Collections of bigger/badder assault guns by gun-owners in cities not an issue you think? ........ Other thing about that is such a gun-owner would likely be targeted for a home invasion by low-life crooks-and they'd be prepared knowing the gun-owner might be prepared.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/11/07 12:49pm

[Barkmann]

reading the newspaper today, and yet another school shooting in the U.S. but thats ok cause with more guns out there means less gun crime right and everyone would feel safe, so i was told by some ppl.

[pezking]

I haven't read the entire thread, but thought I'd put in my two cents.

I'm not pro-gun. On the other hand, I served in the US Army and have fired many rifles and pistols in that time. I like to shoot, target shooting. I don't hunt and don't agree with people that hunt for sport. If you're going to feed your family all winter off some deer meat, that's cool.

I would be for an overall gun ban or some very very strict screening process. My thoughts would be, you'd have to be over 18 years old, no criminal past, no prior convictions, no arrests, etc. Absolutely no assault weapons! They could have ranges where you can fire those type of weapons or if you really want to shoot them, join the military.

I moved to Richmond, VA in the mid-90's to attend college at VCU. At the time, Richmond was the murder capital of the US. Two years later, they appointed a new mayor, Tim Kaine (now governor of VA) and he imposed a new law. You get caught with an unregistered gun, you go to jail. No questions asked. Crime dropped insanely low, especially crime involving hand guns.

The arguement that if you take away the guns, then only criminals will have them. Hmm, yeah, kinda makes sense. But look around at other countries that don't allow a broad assortment of weapons. They don't or barely have any gun crime.

The arguement that if you grow up with rifles, etc and learn gun safety that it's okay. Nah, you look at all the kids that go shooting into schools. There are pics of them a few years earlier out hunting with dad and junk. I think if you have access to them that you'd probably think about using them more.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Hellfighter]

Here's why for gun control- even though you can get registered to buy them there are a number of idiots who shouldn't have that right. When you see the pic in this link, it was the boy's mom and dad buying him the 'arsenal'. Well cowdoc when I saw this pic/tv footage I thought of your post where you mentioned 'having a load of guns-bigger the better' etc., I hope you see why how everyone buying guns legit are seemingly not the ones going to commit a crime- or in this case being responsible for providing them to others intent on doing so.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking...vestigated.html

It's not that gun crime cures crime in gun-controlled countries, but guns are too easy and efficient a way to kill people and quickly. We have gun control up here in Canada but street-gangs do have their hands on them, however the massive police/community intervention on youth gangs really crush the gangs ability to get wildly chaotic. I think total murders in Toronto and Montreal so far this year are around 50 - 60 in each city-> still 50 too much, but compare it to Philadelphia with 400+ right now.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/12/07 2:56pm

[Barkmann]

gun control up here is a joke if you ask me.

[Hellfighter]

Yes, all stats and opinions would make it seem so, but it reminds me of a WW2 thing [of course ].
Everyone says the air bombings on industrial targets in Germany did no good as the production stats in those areas showed a still huge output. If that's the case, imagine how much more huge the production would've been without the intense bombings on those targets. Maybe our gun control is like that- seemingly ineffective, but maybe the effort is keeping things from going beyond a joke to becoming a nightmare on the streets.... imo


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/13/07 4:55am

[Bargod]

I read about this in a different article, and they said that most of those guns were air guns. I think there was only 1 or 2 "real" guns in there.

Of course, I do like the fact that they are holding the parents accountable. The kid felt picked on so the mom, to make him feel better, bought him a pistol, a .22 rifle, and a semi-auto 9mm rifle, or something along those lines.
That's quality parenting!

[cowdoc]

Although I currently live in a rural area (Fox Lake, WI) i grew up in downtown Chicago, 2 blocks north of Cabrini Green. In 1991, my friend Ethan was shot in the head in the alley behind his parents house. Within 2 months, my friends Matt and Rocky were also dead. I am very familiar with the gun problem in an urban environment. That is why I now live in the sticks. I didn't want to rasie my children in the city and Chicago has a law that bans all handguns. Ask OUch who is a Chicago cop. apparently that law did nothing to stop the gangbangers from getting guns. They shot Ethan because he whooped some kids ass in a fist fight. So what happened, the banger got some homeboys and a gun and killed him. matt and Rocky got killed because they had been with Ethan and saw what the shooter looked like. Maybe if my friends had guns the bangers would be dead. I don't care because my friends would still be here.



No easy answer to this issue but "banning guns" is a fantasy. They exist and they are not going away. You might as well try and ban cars or TVs. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter and we all know where I stand. I always have a gun on me because I am a firm believer in having one and not needing it, than needing one and not having it.



I hope I have not upset too many people with this post. I believe what I believe and I am not afraid to share it if asked. Good luck with your debate.

[Bargod]

Cowdoc, this is exactly the reason I was brought up to hate guns. As I said earlier my father grew up in one of the worst slums in the country at the time, Hell's Kitchen. He saw guns as the problem and has always been a streetfighter. When I brought this up earlier it was commented that guns protected people against guys like my dad, as if my dad was some ultimate fighting champion or something. To me it made no sense. If you have an arguement with somebody and you have a fist fight, generally nobody dies. My dad told me he hated Texas because when he was here in the Air Force, if you got in a bar fight with locals they went out to their trucks and got their guns.
Now what kind of sense does that make?
He has only been back to Texas twice since then.
Anyway, clearly one of the problems with gun laws is that they aren't universal across the country. The guys that shot your buddies most likely didn't buy their guns at a gun shop. They bought them out of the trunck of a car.
Where did the seller get them?
They were stolen out of the houses of law-abiding citizens living in the 'burbs.
So, how do you keep criminals from getting hand guns?
You remove their source.
What is their source?
The law abiding citizen.
I don't see shot guns and bolt-action rifles as a problem. In your home a shot gun is going to be better defense against an intruder than a hand gun anyway. And nobody is going to mug you carrying a bolt action rifle.

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Guns are not the problem. The moral callapse of certain sectors of our society is partially at fault. The other is that we don't punish those that use guns in crime and those that have them illegally.

We need more capital punishment and more prisons with longer, mandatory prison terms for those that improperly use a gun.
Problem solved.

[filthy bunny]

Guns are not the problem. The moral callapse of certain sectors of our society is partially at fault. The other is that we don't punish those that use guns in crime and those that have them illegally.

We need more capital punishment and more prisons with longer, mandatory prison terms for those that improperly use a gun.
Problem solved.

.
I agree with the capt......you guys ever heard of the "tent city"? This sheriff in Arizona has the right idea:

http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Sheriff_Bio

[Hellfighter]

Guns are not the problem. The moral callapse of certain sectors of our society is partially at fault. The other is that we don't punish those that use guns in crime and those that have them illegally.

We need more capital punishment and more prisons with longer, mandatory prison terms for those that improperly use a gun.
Problem solved.

Point One I agree with you - with the culture of rap songs glorifying simplistic mentality as a good thing, and violence the cure-all for resolution of disputes for those they've brainwashed into simple-minds.

However, on point 2 I'd wish it would be the answer, but its not working is it. We see mega-prisons at the bursting point, and crooks being let out early as a result on flimsy 'good behaviour' excuses.
Is it because crooks using firearms get more savage in their crimes since they know that getting caught is a very undesirable option? Cowdoc's horrific story regarding his 3 good friends may be a good example of that. Personally summary executions for scum-leach violent crooks, a 'Devil's Island' for thugs, sweeping known gang-hangouts with military afvs would be more to my liking but I think it's all about point one. While violence will always exist, we need to build societies that 1] sets-up guns to be used only by mentally stable people [and sends to prison those selling/illegally turning over guns to those that aren't fit [registration rules]. 2]shows the idiocy behind violent rap music and ridicules bling bling rapsters - kids need to learn more about honouring their neighbours growing up.... imo.

One interesting thing becoming popular up here in Canada is the reintroduction of school uniforms to deter hardcore gang affiliation at high-school age-not cure, but deter it.... you can see its potential for success.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/19/07 1:27am

[Genocide Junkie]

2] kids need to learn more about honouring their neighbours growing up.... imo.

I was brainwashed into this behavior at my Sunday School......

[Hellfighter]

2] kids need to learn more about honouring their neighbours growing up.... imo.

I was brainwashed into this behavior at my Sunday School......

hmmm. - ok, maybe what I meant was more along the lines of good-will to neighbours/ fellow citizens.....


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/19/07 2:23pm

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Guns are not the problem. The moral callapse of certain sectors of our society is partially at fault. The other is that we don't punish those that use guns in crime and those that have them illegally.

We need more capital punishment and more prisons with longer, mandatory prison terms for those that improperly use a gun.
Problem solved.

However, on point 2 I'd wish it would be the answer, but its not working is it.

We aren't doing this now, so I don't see how u can tell if it is working or not. Someone using a gun to commit a crime, like robbery, should get 10 to 15 years with 10 years mandatory. Right now they get maybe 2yrs at best. If someone shoots someone during a crime it should be 20years minimum. Kill someone? The death penalty or life.