Gun Control, A rational discussion Options

[Hellfighter]

...............

We aren't doing this now, so I don't see how u can tell if it is working or not. Someone using a gun to commit a crime, like robbery, should get 10 to 15 years with 10 years mandatory. Right now they get maybe 2yrs at best. If someone shoots someone during a crime it should be 20years minimum. Kill someone? The death penalty or life.

I believe we have those specific laws up here - 6pak would better inform us on that. But stats up here for 2006 shows murders by handguns dropped 10%.
From what I see it varies State to State in the U.S and depending on the presiding judge's whims. Britney would probably get 3 months in rehab for killing someone with an ak47. But seriously, some people are getting away with murder while others are let out early for the same thing- and only a few pay the full price -or didn't even do it. The recent Preacher's Wife case farce was a good example imo... I forgot her name but she did 6 months for manslaughter after shooting her husband in the back with a shotgun mostly because she was fed-up with his 'mean-ness' and apparently nothing more.
But then I go back to my point, a scuzbag who winds up shooting someone is then inclined to finish someone off - rather than do 20 years being lowlife scuzz that they are. I think your point one is the key - and I'd extend it by saying most sectors of society in the realm of inhumane decline..


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/19/07 3:31pm

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

I here ya Hellfighter. However, I don't see anyway to fix #1. So toughening the penalties is the only practical way to move.

[Leadmagnet]

I thought we'd take this discussion off the pic thread and give it it's own area. I'll start with the quote from Junkie:

Guns don't kill people. Crazy people kill people. With a gun, knife, or a wet noodle people are going to be violent with each other. I have several guns. Most of which have not been fired in years. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to shoot anyone but if someone chooses to come into my house uninvited they very well may get a double barreled chest full. Do I think the average person needs an assault rifle? Hell no. But should they be able to keep guns for defense and hunting purposes? For sure.

I have no bias towards one side or the other and find this an interesting topic. I know many people feel strongly one way or the other. I'm not one of those people.
Having said that, I would like to point out that "Crazy people" don't kill people. The majority of murders are between people who know each other. Guns make murder much easier to accomplish. So, gun owners are often the most successful murderers. This, of course, does not make all gun owners bad people. Anyone can lose their cool and when combined with alcohol can act out in violent ways. This is why it is illegal to carry guns into bars. If some drunk guys get into a fist fight nobody is likely to get killed. If somebody pulls a knife, things are going to get worse. I had two waiters who worked together get into a fight and one hit the other in the face with a pint glass. The glass just missed his carotid artery and his eye. What do you think would have happened if that guy had a gun? The guy who only has a scar on his face would have no face. The buddy of the guy that got hit in the face was close to breaking the attackers neck until I stepped in. What do you think would have happed to that guy after his friends head got blown off. Hell, in his drunken panic he could have shot at me just for being there. These two waiters drank together regularly. They got into a fight over who won the most pool games in the bar they were in before they came to mine. They were betting a nickel a game!!!

I won't say all gun owners are potential murderers, but you are less likely to kill somebody in a murderous rage if you don't have a gun. This is one of the reasons I don't want to have a gun in my house. I like to drink and sometimes I get very pissed off at people.

Guns do protect homeowners. Last year a little old lady living in public housing down the street from me shot and killed an intruder in her home. He was unarmed, but she didn't know that, and he wouldn't have needed a weapon to do bodily harm to her anyway. She's an example of the positive side of gun ownership.

I also don't buy into the "more guns means safer citizens" arguement. Australia has very strict gun control and it's murder rate has gone down. The reason? There are fewer murders involving guns. This means that what could have been a murder is more likely now just an assault.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/06/08/1127171.htm

I personally think Michael Moore is a self agrandizing ego maniac, but he made some decent points in Bowling for Columbine.
It is very unlikely that incident would have been possible if it weren't for the weapons they used. Even if they were limited to revolvers and single shot hunting rifles it would have been a different result.

I don't claim to have any answers, but I'd like to hear other oppinions on this.

Never disagree with the man pouring your drinks....

Lead

[-priority(+)target-]

The reasonable proximity to deadly force is inherently dangerous. Trusting the miriad of humanity with access to firearms is a frightning proposition. Common sense tells me this is not optimal.

Look at the differences when Michael Moore visited Toronto vs major city in the US and doors werent locked. Im not saying this is a direct result of gun laws or lack there of, but it is representative of a societal difference, one big difference is firearm accessibility and amount of violent crime. Admittedly I would be hard pressed to prove that they are directly related.

[*Triggahappy13*]

Look at the differences when Michael Moore visited Toronto vs major city in the US and doors werent locked.

look at the differences between M. Moore and a high IQ / common sense

[tagenrog]

Guns don't kill people, men who come home unexpectedly from work in the middle of the afternoon do!

[filthy bunny]

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:



"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)



* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:


Florida vs United States

homicide rate

-36% -0.4%

firearm homicide rate

-37% +15%

handgun homicide rate

-41% +24%

221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)





This post has been edited by filthy bunny: 12/04/07 9:46am

[MorPhine]

Great long winded topic! One that will never end until we are all gone form this Magic place we call earth and that's what is so kewl ……we all have the rights to speak out on anything we want and that is what makes America



Pro or con it's your life and you are all free to live it the way U want, I don't tell you how to live so why would I want you to tell me. I'm an American sportsman like my dad his dad and on and on it has been a way oh life for us



If you want Gun control go to the range and with practice you will become an expert

As for me I will not gave up my right to carry a weapon to anyone, but for those who use a gun to commit a crime well lets jus say he has given up his freedom … I say Get a Rope! But that won't happen because the same people that cry for gun control are mostly the ones that are against the death penalty



In 1990 I lost my brother, he was shot at point blank in the head with a 357 did it change the views on gun control with me or my family or his friends …NO … Justice was served and while the murdering sob didn't get the death sentence he did get 2 life sentences with no possibility of parole

Unfortunately like many of you have stated in this great debate there is no good answer other then we need tougher penalties.



And that is why I live in Montana …we have plenty of trees

[*Triggahappy13*]

if anyone can login here and actually find this vid on youtue...apperantly i can't (This link is on facebook){

http://hs.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=5...;oid=2207081116

he basically Pwns Caorlyn McCarthy with sarcasm.







R.I.P. to your bother MorPhine

[Hellfighter]

The reasonable proximity to deadly force is inherently dangerous. Trusting the miriad of humanity with access to firearms is a frightning proposition. Common sense tells me this is not optimal.

Look at the differences when Michael Moore visited Toronto vs major city in the US and doors werent locked. Im not saying this is a direct result of gun laws or lack there of, but it is representative of a societal difference, one big difference is firearm accessibility and amount of violent crime. Admittedly I would be hard pressed to prove that they are directly related.

I'm not sure if Moore was visiting a particularly cozy/neighbourhood part of the city on a hot day but doors are not left unlocked like that in Toronto as he would suggest- [maybe Torontonians are just 'forgetful' ] -I did find that part of the movie pretty funny though. People there [Torontonians] are worried by crime in reality -there is gang violence.... however that being said;
Murders in total in the city [around 4,000,000 pop. in and around the city] are annually about 60-70 per year -if it climbs closer to 80+ the city gets in hyped anti-crime mode and everyone hunkers down to take steps to get control back in order. The one thing I really liked about Toronto having lived there a long time is they have a system of organization in which politicians, law enforcement, citizens kick-in together as a society when an 'urgent' situation warrants it. You can bet the tough firearm laws make a difference-though some consider it confusing and some laughable, I saw stats for crimes committed with various firearms for Canada not too long ago -i wish i had the link for you now- and in my opinion having those laws do work in that things could be alot worse contrary to those who have the glass half empty idea and consider nothing has changed -exactly my point> things could be worse without the laws.
The big difference imo between the US and Canada though are the very heavy anti-gang stategies in place by the community, education, and especially the police working together to avoid it spinning out of control and taking irreversible root. There are many gangsta wannabe's across Canada and there are legal/illegal firearm carriers not in gangs that commit gun-using crimes [worst being 3 rcmp cops shot dead several years ago by a pot-grower if I remember correctly -I was surprised there was no coverage at all on it following that in the major US media!] but I think in general it's perhaps a national-cultural difference in play where whackos up here are significantly less inclined to use a gun to rectify personal issues or in the 'commission of a crime' than those in the U.S.



This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 12/05/07 6:58am

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

I here ya Hellfighter. However, I don't see anyway to fix #1. So toughening the penalties is the only practical way to move.

Or expand conceal/carry permits. Great post FilthyBunny!

[Genocide Junkie]

I live in Alabama and haven't locked my doors to go to bed, work, or even vacation in as long as I can remember. In fact I literally don't know where a key is to any door in my house. But I know exactly where my shotgun and shells are

[Jesse James]

GUN BAN=BETTER PICKING FOR THE CRIMINAL PERIOD! Trust me i been on both side of the fence.


Short but TRUE story

Guy wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of his car alarm going off.

A. Guy run out in his boxer with a baseball bat.
B. Guy Walk out off his house with a 45.
C. Guy stay indoor and call police.

All three of these have had Happen to me in my younger bad day. Here what happen.

Guy A came out running with a bat while i was stealing his car and He ran into my lookout with a 9mm, He's Slowly wake back inside.

Guy B Walk out with the 45. and my look out yell out Gun and we Jetted!!

Guy C Had full coverage on his car!!


Ban on Gun is a NONO!!

Word!





Here in the U.S. our Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. This is for three primary reasons. Hunting, defense (self and country) and most importantly, so we can rise up and overthrow an oppressive government. Be careful before you give some bureaucrat that much power over your life.



Word! Word!





BTW I gave up actually reading this thread on about page 4 so this reply might not even be relevent any more. Don't you people have jobs? Sheesh



JJ

[Hellfighter]

...
Word!

Here in the U.S. our Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. This is for three primary reasons. Hunting, defense (self and country) and most importantly, so we can rise up and overthrow an oppressive government. Be careful before you give some bureaucrat that much power over your life.



Word! Word!
BTW I gave up actually reading this thread on about page 4 so this reply might not even be relevent any more. Don't you people have jobs? Sheesh
JJ

Triple Word. lol- yes we have jobs- we just like debating.... I'm in mob forum more than I play now it seems lol. Debating isn't bad- it's progressive....
I don't think that 'Rise Up' thing is relevant though - FBI has an eye out for any major militias/contenders regarding gunpower imo. I think alot of people in nations in the West don't see a problem with not having the right to collect an arsenal of big guns -I'm not criticizing you, just pointing out a different perspective.

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Well as soon as the Muslims complete their take over of France, Britain, and Germany, they probably will wish they had stockpiled a few Glock's.