Climate change hits Mars!!, What? No humans on mars! How can this be? Options

[HammaTime]

Good points, Vinny, but do you have any more recent information? You've cited one article that is FIVE years old, written in 2002, and another that was published two years ago.

That certainly doesn't negate your point, the issue before us is extremely complex and the experts have predicted that we'll see wild fluctuations across the globe. For instance, data that was recorded in Greenland and the Arctic this past summer appears to be an incredible aberration. The melting has accelerated to such an extent that many climatologist hope this was a complete fluke of nature.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...71211233433.htm

Reuters reported earlier this month that the Antarctic peninsula is "warming five times faster than the average in the rest of the world" and researchers are claiming that this has caused a slump in the penquin population:

http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnL11693128.html

It seems that no matter what kind of data is being returned, the obvious solution is for all of us to take small steps to try to do our part. Even if you think the phrase "global warming" is the biggest marketing ploy since the Loch Ness Monster, it seems to me that it would behoove all of us to cut back on our energy use. The less energy we use, the less energy we are going to have to buy from countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and all the OPEC member nations.

Here in Maine we've got plenty of incentive to cut back on our energy consumption. The mercury spewing from coal-fired power plants in the midwest have polluted all of our lakes and streams. That has, in turn, poisoned all of the fish in every body of fresh water in our pristine state. We have fish advisories posted that warn us that pregnant or nursing mothers and children should not eat any fresh water fish. Men are supposed to restrict their diet to one serving of fish per month.

To do my part, I went through my house and replaced all my incandescent bulbs with compact flourescent lightbulbs. I rewired the bathroom lights so the main switch for the room would light a single CFL in the fan instead of the bank of lights over the vanity. The secondary light switch turns on the vanity lights. Now, when someone gets up from the livingroom to go to the bathroom and throws the switch, they only burn 13 watts of electricity instead of the 240 watts they would have burned before I rewired the switches. It was a simple change that saves an incredible amount of energy and money!

I had been a bit skeptical that my small efforts would make a difference, but I was stunned to see my monthly electric bill drop from an average of $100/month to $48/month. If we all made these small changes, that would mean we could start shutting down many of the remaining oil-fired power plants in the country, and perhaps we could begin the process of weaning ourselves from the grips of OPEC.

So, whether you are blowing warm or cold air, it makes sense to spend a few more bucks to buy those CFLs the next time you need a lightbulb!

This post has been edited by HammaTime: 12/22/07 1:17pm

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

Unbelievable! I just spent an hour in replying to you Hamma and I lost it all! At least the third time this has happened! I'm not going to redo it all. I'll leave it a mystery. And don't expect anymore long winded posts by me! Crap! I'm pissed.

In essence, yes there are newer reports 2004, 2005.
And I listed a whole slew of energy saving projects I've done to my household including compact flouresects.

[Hellfighter]

Unbelievable! I just spent an hour in replying to you Hamma and I lost it all! At least the third time this has happened!

Damn- those Gremlins I hired are pretty good!
I hate when that happens - not that many times fortunately

[HammaTime]

Hey Pat, if only you could get those Gremlins to do something about Global Warming!! LOL!

Ah, Vinny, I feel your pain. All that time, and nothing to show for it! And it was certainly time you could have been spending with your family. I'll imagine a highly informative post that brought me up to date on the surprising cooling that is overtaking the entire Antarctic continent.

I'd be very interested to hear about the work you did around your house. I remember that terrific pool house you built, but save it for when we are on Vent. Go spend some time with the family!! And, pour me another Cap'n Morgan & Diet Coke while you are up.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays!

- David

This post has been edited by HammaTime: 12/23/07 9:43am

[Blitz]

Interesting new book I heard about concerning global warming

http://www.amazon.com/Deniers-Renowned-Sci...n/dp/0980076315

I heard the person talk about the book, it sounds pretty good.

[UNDEAD 1]

thing that worries me is that giant crack in antartica that just happend . but hey its probably propoganda or something.

[Cpt.Canuck]

Here's a new(ish) video from Al Gore and climate change. An update really, to An Inconvenient Truth.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/243

I thought it was pretty good. Please check it out.

[Blitz]

Is it me or does Al Gore look more and more like Vince McMahon everyday...

They both sell BS and with a lot of theatrics. I'm waiting for the Hurricane "Undertaker" to destroy us all in a tack covered cage match.

I guess I would listen to Al if he had the balls to debate anyone openly about these issues, ever notice how all he ever does is give speeches.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=092707B

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewb...t_more_debates/

All Gore ever does is put down people who have a seperate opinion as deniers, flat earther, fake moon landing crackpots

If you will not stand on a stage and back your opnions with scientific facts and have an open debate then you are a chicken shit
Gore wants to repress all other scientific options because he does not believe in the scientific data enough to let the facts stand on their own merit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDI2NVTYRXU

[HammaTime]

I can't speak to Al Gore's reasons for avoiding specific debates, but I do know that the YouTube clip you linked to was debunked a while ago. I believe this was part of a program that aired in England titled "The Great Global Warming Swindle."

Dive into the piece a bit and it is easy to see that there is a lot of bullshit flying.

If you are familiar with the "scientists" who speak out in opposition to carbon as a major contributor, you'll note that virtually everyone of them draws a salary from the oil companies. So, from the gitgo, their "science" can hardly be viewed as unbiased.

The canard of carbon levels lagging behind temperature levels was disproved very early in the debate:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archi...o2-in-ice-cores
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archi...n-temp-and-co2/

The arguments that recent global warming is caused by solar activity have been debunked by science:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtm...1/scisun111.xml

One of the naysayers on the YouTube clip isn't even a scientist and is certainly not qualified as a voice of science. He only earned a bachelor's degree in Physics in 1969. He is known for an online weather forecasting betting service he started in 1995. Many of his predictions have proved to be widely inaccurate.

I assume you feel that he isn't "chicken shit," but how do you explain that after his inaccurate weather forecasts were publicized by London newspapers, he banned the publication of any accounts of his predictions unless he gave explicit approval. That sounds like chicken shit to me!

One of the other speakers on the video was challenged in Canadian newspapers by a climatologist who wrote an op-ed stating that "he does not have the academic background and qualifications to make serious comments on global warming" That guy sued the newspaper and the paper responded by proving that he had lied about his academic background AND he was a paid shill for the oil and gas industry. He took the chicken shit route and dropped his lawsuit. LOL!

I'll think about these guys the next time I'm filling my gas tank. Nice to know the obscene record setting profits the oil companies are raking in are used so effectively.

[Blitz]

Good links HammaTime,
I was searching for something else and it lead me to that link, I watched it but did no research it further in my rush.... I agree that the person sounds chicken shit to me to stand by his beliefs and not admit to being wrong.

The isteresting thing about this is it is a live debate, there are scientists on both sides throwing facts all about. I do not like hearing that all debate is closed which I am starting to hear more and more.

Some are bought and paid for on both sides. What concerns me is the LACK of honest debate in the media in genearal about this issue. Both sides are left scurring to the interet to find facts and opinions presented by both sides and the truth about what will happen is conjecture and hypothetical guess.
It will never be known until it has happened.

Al Gore is investing 300 million (from who???) to make global warming a topic on the presidential debates, has testified before congress, and is pushing this issue. He had 8 years to make this a top priority, but now it is the utmost crisis?

The thing that scares me most is the cap and trade (carbon credit) tax concepts that will be the outcome without honest debate.
Watch the John Kerry / Newt Gingrich debate.. There are solutions rather than HUGE government / UN control. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7844874520095835803

The point of the thread re-start and the link to the book was that the author suggested that he had unbiased, experts in their fields that were against conclusive evidence about man made global warming. As I said originally I had not read it, but the amazon thread lists about 15 scientists that are discussed in the book and their backgrounds.
From the interview the author stated that he is a staunch environmentalist and activist. He mentioned that he believed fully the man made global warming theory and set out to prove that there were no credable scientists that were against it. his research shocked him and he wrote the book to help re-open the debate.

From the "man made" deniers point of view if there are credable scientists that have alternative hypothises and show errors in the original data that everyone trumpets as fact then the debate should still be open.

I found this old link about some deniers and their background, maybe they all have been proven as lapdogs for big oil, or maybe they just look at the science from their own perspective and not a foregone conclusion and look for the science to justify their pre-concieved notions.
It's a 10 part series
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=...0bed2f6&k=0

Lastly HammaTime , this has been a great topic and you have brought a lot of data to be sifted thru and I wish this is what I would see in my nightly news and in the paper rather than another topic on ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1998570/posts
Or Ted Turner going NUTZ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LZuC1xLHXRc&feature=related

[HammaTime]

I've really enjoyed all the posts involving global warming, and I certainly agree that we all should cast a critical eye whenever someone claims to have "all the facts."

Unfortunately, the science behind such a complex issue as climate change is really more than us laypersons can truly grasp. We are left at the mercy of folks who seek to exploit our lack of sophisticated understanding so that they might make a buck. And, obviously, this happens on all sides of an issue.

My biggest concern is that it is getting harder and harder to know if the information we are being handed has been prepared honestly. Dig a little deeper into the background of those providing the info and it all too often becomes apparent that they have an ax to grind, or someone is paying them a lot of money in support of their position. That isn't science, it is advocacy.

Just tonight the AP is reporting that a glacier lake in Chili suddenly emptied. The water bore through five miles of glaciated ice. This is exactly what scientists have discovered is happening in Greenland.

A recent book I read that proved to be interesting was "Six Degrees" by Mark Lynas.

http://www.amazon.com/Six-Degrees-Future-H...t/dp/142620213X

He did some exhaustive research into the published scientific papers that have been written on climate issues. He starts with predictions of what our planet will be like with 1 degree change, the next chapter he writes about 2 degree change and on until six degrees. I quickly read through the first two chapters, but found myself putting the book down once he reached 3 degrees. I started having a hard time absorbing the reality of such extensive change. Hell, the one degree change was really more than I wanted to stomach.

Keep in mind that six degrees of cooling had most of North America covered with over a mile of ice, so six degrees of heating represents a monumental change in the opposite direction.

As I read the book, I kept thinking about the Defense Department's report on climate change, "An Abrupt Climate Change Scenario and Its Implications for United States National Security" and their implication that the military wouldn't be able to protect America after just a couple of degrees of warming. You may not have heard about the report because the government allegedly tried to keep it under wraps and the media seemed relatively disinterested in it. The London Observer first reported the findings:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2004...ews.theobserver

One of the best articles on the report was done by Fortune magazine, with the cooperation of the DoD:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/for...60120/index.htm

You can read the entire report by downloading the PDF here:

http://www.gbn.com/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=26231

Obviously, the report was based on some questionable data, but the bottom line is that it doesn't take much change to completely alter the social fabric of our world.

To keep this related to the gaming world a bit, a game I've really enjoyed is "Frontlines: Fuel of War" which takes place in this dark future where new alliances have been formed as the world struggles with the lack of oil.

The DoD isn't sitting around on their hands worrying if carbon levels rightly proceeded temperature levels. They looked at a few basic facts and determined that a dark scenario may be playing out here. They undoubtedly are making intensive preparations for the defense of our country.

Come to think of it, if I was Al Gore, I'm not sure I'd want to be wasting my time debating with the very few folks left who still feel this isn't something for which we need to be preparing. If I had his resources, I'd be out pressing for people to stand up and start working to protect our country and our planet.

This post has been edited by HammaTime: 04/10/08 10:49pm

[Shred]

I live in Maine.



Just down the road from Hamma.



I want as much global warming as I can get.

[HammaTime]

I want as much global warming as I can get.

Amen to that!

This post has been edited by HammaTime: 04/11/08 9:15am

[Hellfighter]

However....... Most places across the length of Canada reported their most snowiest winter on record!

[HammaTime]

However....... Most places across the length of Canada reported their most snowiest winter on record!

That's why the term really should be "climate change" and not global warming. Some areas heat up, some areas cool down, some experience crippling drought while others suffer from devastating floods and some won't experience any change at all.

The big question remains, what do we do.

Skyrocketing prices for flour (here in Maine we've seen prices jump 500% in the last six months) are partly blamed on the shift to Ethanol production in the states and Canada. Farmers have converted some wheat fields to corn to take advantage of tax breaks. But, at the same time, drought in Australia has whithered their wheat crop and the spreading stem rust disease is killing wheat crops in Asia.

With the weak dollar, China can afford to outbid US buyers and they've gobbled up much of the available wheat. This is just one example of people who think they are doing the right thing (shifting to Ethanol) who end up causing more trouble down the line. Canada has responded by announcing an expected 11% increase in their wheat production for next year, but our US presidential candidates seem completely disinterested in the issue.

I've read a lot of predictions that say America will be protected from mass starvation because of the wealth of the country. Well, that wealth is whithering on the vine, along with the wheat, thanks to the incredibly depreciated dollar.

These are dire times indeed.