I can't believe this. Options

[Silver]

I would like to agree with Silver, but

THAT WILL BE THE DAY!!!!

[Blakjak]

lol indeed silver haha

[Frosty]

Wow, I really didn't mean to spawn such an argument here. But I think we all agree that this guy is wacko, and that no matter how you feel about our situation in the War on Terror, his position is unacceptable. When people at home stop supporting the troops, wars are lost. Someone mentioned Viet Nam. Perfect example.

During and immediately after the Tet Offensive of 1968, the U.S. military had scored huge victories. The Viet Cong were never again able to field full battalions, and this put the bulk of the fighting duties on the North Vietnamese army. However, the U.S. media portrayed the offensive as a defeat on our part, and a lot on the U.S. population lost faith in the military's claims that we were about to win the war. With the opposition to the war dramatically incresing after Tet '68, political pressure was applied to Johnson and leter Nixon, which led to the strategy of Vietnamization (training the Vietnamese to fight instead of us). This would have been fine, except that the South Vietnamese had nothing to fight for. The government established in Saigon by the U.S. was horribly corrupt, and no ARVN (Army of the Republic of Viet Nam) soldier wanted to fight for it. So ,after we pulled out and left the war in their hands, the NVA (North Vietnamese Army) made quick work of them.

The key point here is that the major turning point in the "war" (I put that in quotes because war was never formally declared) occurred when the average U.S. citizen lost faith in the military, and a small percentage (Jane Fonda and the extremists within the Antiwar Movement) deprecated our troops. It scares me that someone out there is seeming to do the same thing, and I truly hope that this opinion does not spread. I am at a loss as to how anyone can have such hatred for the men and women who secure our liberties and attempt to share them with the rest of the world.

I don't care who you are, what your political background is, how much you dislike our government, or even how much you dislike the military in general, you've got to have support for the soldiers themselves. Without that, we will not win in any war, and we will soon lose the freedoms that these soldiers are trying to uphold.

[Druid]

Blackjak brings up a very interesting point with the "support the troops" flag pasted on everyones car. To me thats nothing more than a fad for most people, go back 20 years and the same people would have the stupid "baby on board" type of things in their window. ( I wonder how many people are old enough to remember that ).
I'll check out the book you mentioned.

Two things stand out in my mind when I think about people in the military.
1st would be a book called Starship Troopers written by Robert Heinlein.
If your thinking the bug movie you would be right but the movie tossed out everything worthwhile in the book and what it was really about, positive aspects of military service. The book was really about the idea only people who volunteered for federal service (in the military or otherwise) are permitted to vote and hold political office. Everyone was the same except the right to vote. People still serving couldn't vote but veterans could. The reason being, they have shown that they could "place the welfare of the group ahead of personal advantage."
The second would be a trip to D.C. in 1984, we were doing all the normal sight-seeing stuff. Happen to hear that Ronald Reagan was going to give a public speech so we went to see it. The speech happen to be at Arlington National Cemetery. The reason, which I didn't know at the time was the interment of the last of the 4 unknown soldiers.
I remember walking through the cemetery towards the Memorial Amphitheater where the speech was going to be held. On the way to the Amphitheater we crossed probably the biggest hill there, happen to turn to take a look around to see rolling hills and perfect rows of tombstones as far as you could see in every direction. It was a very sobering experience.
After the speech we went to visit the tomb, the side facing the Amphitheater has an inscription which reads.
HERE RESTS IN
HONORED GLORY
AN AMERICAN
SOLDIER
KNOWN BUT TO GOD
I still remember it 20+ years later because I almost broke into tears when I read it.

As sickening as I find the website you pointed to, truth is that's the dark side of free speech and you can't have one without the other.

[holden_caulfield]

This topic is old but...

Druid and Blakjak speak reason. my 2c.

And the whole uproar over this website.. I mean, seriously, I just don't understand the fervor which this country feels it owes to its troops, as if somehow putting on that uniform makes you untouchable. No, honor and character are things which you still have to earn.

And let's not forget. This is a volunteer army, and like any volunteer army, it deserves extra commendation when its volunteers make the CHOICE to put their lives on the line for a worthy cause like WWII, and it deserves some shame when its volunteers make the CHOICE to put their lives on the line for something so ridiculously political and greedy like, oh, the Spanish-American War. For some of you out there, DO NOT THINK I AM DENIGRATING THE CURRENT TROOPS, I am merely saying that putting on the uniform, in and of itself, doesn't make you suddenly venerable and sacred.

Those guys who signed up because of 9-11, they deserve credit. Those guys who signed up because of IRaq, well, that's their choice. But that doesn't make them automatically MY hero, nor should my opinion suddenly make me the most liberal america-hating communist to ever disgrace this side of the continental divide.

And c'mon, let's not be so naive to think that lost the Vietnam War (or 'military action') because american public opinion turned, although that didn't help. How about... Vietnamese public opinion turning against us, or the ridiculous rules of engagement imposed by the Johnson and Nixon administrations, how about our fear that China would get involved? As some presidents have shown, and continue to show, war can be waged with or without public consent.

[*Triggahappy13*]

anyone who doesnt support our troops,, shoud watch "The true story of black hawk down" so the understand what some of our troops have to deal with to live or protect others.

[Silver]

how about just watchng black hawk down. the reports of that incident were never investigated by the govt. and was investigated by a phily reporter and that investigation was accepted by the army. the book leaves out very little from the movie (they are very alike)

wearing the unifrom dont make you a hero, being in the service and letting your life be put on the line does. they are hero's... from the guy sitting in a pushing a pencil in alaska to the guy on the 50 cal a top the humv.

america needs to make a stand and stop the terrorist acts around the world. ignoring a bees nest wont make it go away.

[Druid]

The black hawk down story is an incredible read.
Here is a very in depth review of it done by the Philly Inquirer.
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp

If anyone doesn't know what a hero is, well here is a story of 2 heroes.
Mike Durant's copter was the 2nd one to go down.
The only available rescue team had already roped down to the 1st crash site, leaving no one to protect Durant's crash site.
There where two Delta team snipers providing over-watch strapped to outside benches mounted on a little M-6 helicopter. They requested and were given permission to go in to try and defend Durant's downed helicoper until a rescue team could arrive. 2 men armed with only sniper rifles go in to defend Durant and his crew agaisnt a 100+ mob. Both men died defending the helicopter crew.
Hero's in my book

[Opeth]

im not sure if any of you seen this link.
http://michaelcrooktalks.com/node/203

On forsakethetroops.net it says that Michael Crook owns the site but i guess the who thing is a hoax.

[*Triggahappy13*]

The black hawk down story is an incredible read.
Here is a very in depth review of it done by the Philly Inquirer.
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp

If anyone doesn't know what a hero is, well here is a story of 2 heroes.
Mike Durant's copter was the 2nd one to go down.
The only available rescue team had already roped down to the 1st crash site, leaving no one to protect Durant's crash site.
There where two Delta team snipers providing over-watch strapped to outside benches mounted on a little M-6 helicopter. They requested and were given permission to go in to try and defend Durant's downed helicoper until a rescue team could arrive. 2 men armed with only sniper rifles go in to defend Durant and his crew agaisnt a 100+ mob. Both men died defending the helicopter crew.
Hero's in my book

this is what people need to see. these men gave their live ON PURPOSE to try and save the piolts life. basically they knew they were gonna die but they wanted the mob to get through them first no matter what.

[Druid]

Yep Opeth this guy is bringing trolling to a new level and format.

[Silver]

our soldiers were vastly out numbered...by some estimates thousands... and they survived!

we are asome bad ass mother fu@kers!

[Too Exclusive]

now for of all im not going to comment on the site, because i have no clue what it's about because apparently at the time of my posting it, it's shut down. so if someone can explain what it's about i can comment. I defend the right of free speech to the fullest no matter what you say. should people that burn the american flags on american streets be arrested? no. should they be ridiculed by others? in my opinion, yes. but they hsouldnt be arrested because that's their right to free speech.

now going way back to wat ghost said about them hating america being part of their religion, that shows how little you actually know. NOWHWERE IN THE KORAN does it say anything about hating freedom. the MEDIA portrays it to be part of their religion, but dont forget, islam is 1000's of years old, america is 230 years old. nowhere in their religion does it talk about blowing themselves up or hating freedom. trust me on that one.

now it's your right to free speech whether you support the troops or not. i definitely support my troops. i have talked to about 10 different families of people who have lost loved ones in Iraq. one of them, a woman whose name i wont mentioned, opposed the UN resolution to go to Iraq, and basically ever since, has had government monitoring up her ass, phones tapped, e-mails read, cameras placed in her house, people do searches of her house... and this is an innocent old woman who did absolutely nothing and lost her son in Iraq. that type of shit is un called of and evidence that they really dont care about "terrorists", but rather terrorizing innocent people like her.

I believe it was druid who spoke of arlington cemetery. i was there on april 14th of this year and i did go to the tomb of the unknown soldier (that hill is a pain in the ass to climb isnt it? ). it was very touching seeing that, although the changing of the guard ceremony was boring :/ while i was there (unfortunately i was already at the tomb when this happened) there was a howitzer salute for some foreign general. I heard the howitzers loud and clear, but didn't know they were howitzers at first. it was sobering, i agree druid.

the troops i spoke to there that were in uniform all seemed to disagree with the war. although whenever i see a troop, veteran or still serving, i always salute them. so i guess i support my troops but that depends on what you mean by supporting the troops. i admire the troops, i dont support the war. i would fight if it was a war i agreed with, not some war that was planned in the 90's by Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney :/

[Frosty]

Well, basically it had a bunch of pictures of troops with captions like "More trained baby-killers" etc. And then it had this guy's opinion that the troops should havbe to pay for their own housing, weapons, and stuff. Then he had news clips about soldiers dying with titles like "Nine more stupid Marine fuckers have their careers blow up in their faces"

[Too Exclusive]

well, he does reserve the right to free speech... unfortunately... but i reserve the right to beat the shit outta him =)