I'll bring it up.... Options

[holden_caulfield]

This is completely apples to oranges here.
I don't know how you can draw a similarity between someone protesting or criticizing the government and people who either openly supported attacks on civilians or refused to at least condemn the attacks.

I don't see why it's so difficult to see the corollary. Given that the libertarian philosophy supports maximizing individual rights while limiting government influence, it's kind of weird that you seem rather open to the idea of the government relocating or interring people. But we've already covered this.

Tim McVeigh openly supported attacks on civilians. So there's a solid example to back up my argument. Let's go lock up all the white people, nuke Oklahoma, and sort that shit out after fallout. Great idea huh?

And flag burning, it seems that the only kind of people who get incited are people like you, who get so riled up when they see the US flag on fire that they want to change the constitution. What's the point in banning it? Why shouldn't it be covered by the first amendment? Who is being harmed?

It's a symbolic gesture. It does not shout out, "Hey crazy mob, let's go and trample people and cause havoc." I've never heard of a mob that was incited by a burning flag. Not in the US. Again, people forget that what is sacred is not this country, it is what this country stands for.

And Real's grand plan--nuke everyone and ask questions later--seems kind of childish and naive ("we'll just sort out the friends from the foes, green M&M's from the red), especially now that he's come out and told us that he was 'deadly serious' about them.

But seeing as how he's withdrawn from this debate, I guess we'll never know the specifics.

[realdeal]

I thought I was pretty specific. how much more specificity do you want? And I never said to ask any questions later. In fact, I think the questions have already been answered. You mention locking up the white people because of Timothy McVeigh. LOL. Shall we take a look back in history to see exactly how the US has been affected by terrorists and what all of these terrorists have in common? Let's.....



June 5, 1968, Presidential candidate Robert "Bobby" Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan, a Jordanian Arab-Palestinian. RFK was shot at point-blank range from behind by three shots from Sirhan's .22 caliber pistol ... two shots entered his back and a third shot entered directly behind RFK’s right ear.

February 23, 1970, Halhoul, West Bank. PLO terrorists open fire on a busload of pilgrims killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two other Americans.

March 28-29, 1970, Beirut, Lebanon. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) fired seven rockets at the U.S. Embassy, the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and the John F. Kennedy library.

September 14, 1970, En route to Amman, Jordan. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine hijacked a TWA flight from Zurich, Switzerland and forced it to land in Amman. Four American citizens were injured.

May 30, 1972, Ben Gurion Airport, Israel. Three members of the Japanese Red Army, acting on the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine's behalf, carried out a machine-gun and grenade attack at Israel's main airport, killing 26 and wounding 78 people. Many of the casualties were American citizens, mostly from Puerto Rico.

September 5, 1972, Munich, Germany. During the Olympic Games in Munich, Black September, a front for Fatah took hostage 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. Nine athletes were killed including weightlifter David Berger, an American-Israeli from Cleveland, Ohio.

March 2, 1973, Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo A. Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador to Sudan and George C. Moore, also a U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum. It seems likely that Fatah was responsible for the attack.

June 29, 1975, Beirut, Lebanon. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine kidnapped the U.S. military attaché to Lebanon, Ernest Morgan, and demanded food, clothing and building materials for indigent residents living near Beirut harbor. The American diplomat was released after an anonymous benefactor provided food to the neighborhood.

November 14, 1975, Jerusalem, Israel. Lola Nunberg, 53, of New York, was injured during a bombing attack in downtown Jerusalem. Fatah claimed responsibility for the bombing, which killed six people and wounded 38.

November 21, 1975, Ramat Hamagshimim, Israel. Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democrat Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students in the Golan Heights.

August 11, 1976, Istanbul, Turkey. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine lunched an attack on the terminal of Israel's major airline, El Al, at the Istanbul airport. Four civilians, including Harold Rosenthal of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, (and an aide to U.S. Senator Jacob Javits) were killed and 20 injured.

January 1, 1977, Beirut, Lebanon. Frances E. Meloy, U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, were kidnapped by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members as they crossed a militia checkpoint separating the Christian from the Muslim sections of Beirut. They were later shot to death.

March 11, 1978, Tel Aviv, Israel. Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was among 38 people shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach.

June 2, 1978, Jerusalem, Israel. Richard Fishman, a medical student from Maryland, was among six killed in a PLO bus bombing in Jerusalem. Chava Sprecher, another American citizen from Seattle, Washington, was injured.

May 4, 1979, Tiberias, Israel. Haim Mark and his wife, Haya, of New Haven, Connecticut were injured in a PLO bombing attack in northern Israel.

November 4, 1979, Teheran, Iran. After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the U.S., Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

May 2, 1980, Hebron, West Bank. Eli Haze'ev, an American-Israeli from Alexandria, Virginia, was killed in a PLO attack on Jewish worshippers walking home from a synagogue in Hebron.

July 19, 1982, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah members kidnapped David Dodge, acting president of the American University in Beirut. After a year in captivity, Dodge was released.

August 19, 1982, Paris, France. Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris.

March 16, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Five American Marines were wounded in a hand grenade attack while on patrol north of Beirut International Airport. The Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal, a Shi'ite militia, claimed responsibility for the attack.

April 18, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.

July 1, 1983, Hebron, Israel. Aharon Gross, 19, an American-Israeli from New York, was stabbed to death by PLO terrorists in the Hebron marketplace.

September 29, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Two American marines were kidnapped by Amal members. They were released after intervention by a Lebanese army officer.

October 23, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.

December 19, 1983, Jerusalem, Israel. Serena Sussman, a 60-year-old tourist from Anderson, South Carolina, died from injuries from the PLO bombing of a bus in Jerusalem thirteen days earlier.

January 18, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Malcolm Kerr, a Lebanese born American who was president of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two gunmen outside his office. Hizballah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to "drive all Americans out from Lebanon."

March 7, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah members kidnapped Jeremy Levin, Beirut bureau chief of Cable News Network (CNN). Levin managed to escape and reach Syrian army barracks. He was later transferred to American hands.

March 8, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Three Hizballah members kidnapped Reverend Benjamin T. Weir, while he was walking with his wife in Beirut's Manara neighborhood. Weir was released after 16 months of captivity with Syrian and Iranian assistance.

March 16, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Buckley was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners. However when the transaction failed to take place, he was reportedly transported to Iran. Although his body was never found, the U.S. administration declared the American diplomat dead.

April 12, 1984, Torrejon, Spain. Hizballah bombed a restaurant near an U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, killing 18 servicemen and wounding 83 people.

September 20, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. A suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in East Beirut killed 23 people and injured 21. The American and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the attack, attributed to the Iranian backed Hizballah group.

September 20, 1984, Aukar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad detonate a van full of explosives 30 feet in front of the U.S. Embassy annex severely damaging the building, killing two U.S. servicemen and seven Lebanese employees, as well as 5 to 15 non-employees. Twenty Americans were injured, including U.S. Ambassador Reginald Bartholomew and visiting British Ambassador David Miers. An estimated 40 to 50 Lebanese were hurt. The attack came in response to the U.S. veto September 6 of a U.N. Security Council resolution.

December 4, 1984, Tehran, Iran. Hizballah terrorists hijacked a Kuwait Airlines plane en route from Dubai, United Emirates, to Karachi, Pakistan. They demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of members of Da'Wa, a group of Shiite extremists serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets on Kuwaiti territory. The terrorists forced the pilot to fly to Tehran where the terrorists murdered two passengers--American Agency for International Development employees, Charles Hegna and William Stanford. Although an Iranian special unit ended the incident by storming the plane and arresting the terrorists, the Iranian government might also have been involved in the hijacking.

June 14, 1985, Between Athens and Rome. Two Hizballah members hijacked a TWA Flight 847 en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia.

October 7, 1985, Between Alexandria, Egypt and Haifa, Israel. A four-member Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine squad took over the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, as it was sailing from Alexandria, Egypt, to Israel. The squad murdered a disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, by throwing him in the ocean. The rest of the passengers were held hostage for two days and later released after the terrorists turned themselves in to Egyptian authorities in return for safe passage. But U.S. Navy fighters intercepted the Egyptian aircraft flying the terrorists to Tunis and forced it to land at the NATO airbase in Italy, where the terrorists were arrested. Two of the terrorists were tried in Italy and sentenced to prison. The Italian authorities however let the two others escape on diplomatic passports. Abu Abbas, who masterminded the hijacking, was later convicted to life imprisonment in absentia.

December 27, 1985, Rome, Italy. Four terrorists from Abu Nidal's organization attacked El Al offices at the Leonardo di Vinci Airport in Rome. Thirteen people, including five Americans, were killed and 74 wounded, among them two Americans. The terrorists had come from Damascus and were supported by the Syrian regime.

March 30, 1986, Athens, Greece. A bomb exploded on a TWA flight from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed four U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, although the plane safely landed. The bombing was attributed to the Fatah Special Operations Group's intelligence and security apparatus, headed by Abdullah Abd al-Hamid Labib, alias Colonel Hawari.

April 5, 1986, West Berlin, Germany. An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, frequented by American soldiers, killed three--2 U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman-and wounded 191 including 41 U.S. soldiers. Given evidence of Libyan involvement, the U.S. Air Force made a retaliatory attack against Libyan targets on April 17. Libya refused to hand over to Germany five suspects believed to be there. Others, however, were tried including Yassir Shraidi and Musbah Eter, arrested in Rome in August 1997 and extradited; and also Ali Chanaa, his wife, Verena Chanaa, and her sister, Andrea Haeusler. Shraidi, accused of masterminding the attack, was sentenced to 14 years in jail. The Libyan diplomat Musbah Eter and Ali Chanaa were both sentenced to 12 years in jail. Verena Chanaa was sentenced to 14 years in prison. Andrea Haeusler was acquitted.

September 5, 1986, Karachi, Pakistan. Abu Nidal members hijacked a Pan Am Flight #103 leaving Karachi, Pakistan bound for Frankfurt, Germany and New York with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans. The terrorists forced the plane to land in Larnaca, Cyprus, where they demanded the release of two Palestinians and a Briton jailed for the murder of three Israelis there in 1985. The terrorists killed 22 of the passengers, including two American citizens and wounded many others. They were caught and indicted by a Washington grand jury in 1991.

September 9, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Continuing its anti-American attacks, Hizballah kidnapped Frank Reed, director of the American University in Beirut, whom they accused of being "a CIA agent." He was released 44 months later. September 12, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped Joseph Cicippio, the acting comptroller at the American University in Beirut. Cicippio was released five years later on December 1991.

October 15, 1986, Jerusalem, Israel. Gali Klein, an American citizen, was killed in a grenade attack by Fatah at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

October 21, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped Edward A. Tracy, an American citizen in Beirut. He was released five years later, on August 1991.

February 17, 1988, Ras-Al-Ein Tyre, Lebanon. Col. William Higgins, the American chief of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization, was abducted by Hizballah while driving from Tyre to Nakura. The hostages demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon and the release of all Palestinian and Lebanese held prisoners in Israel. The U.S. government refused to answer the request. Hizballah later hanged Higgins.

December 21, 1988, Lockerbie, Scotland. Pan Am Flight 103 departing from Frankfurt to New York was blown up in midair, killing all 259 passengers and another 11 people on the ground in Scotland. Two Libyan agents were found responsible for planting a sophisticated suitcase bomb onboard the plane. On 14 November 1991, arrest warrants were issued for Al-Amin Khalifa Fahima and Abdel Baset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi. After Libya refused to extradite the suspects to stand trial, the United Nations leveled sanctions against the country in April 1992, including the freezing of Libyan assets abroad. In 1999, Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi agreed to hand over the two suspects, but only if their trial was held in a neutral country and presided over by a Scottish judge. With the help of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah, Al-Megrahi and Fahima were finally extradited and tried in Camp Zeist in the Netherlands. Megrahi was found guilty and jailed for life, while Fahima was acquitted due to a "lack of evidence" of his involvement. After the extradition, UN sanctions against Libya were automatically lifted.

January 27, 1989, Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey. Three simultaneous bombings were carried out against U.S. business targets--the Turkish American Businessmen Association and the Economic Development Foundation in Istanbul, and the Metal Employees Union in Ankara. The Dev Sol was held responsible for the attacks.

March 6, 1989, Cairo, Egypt. Two explosive devices were safely removed from the grounds of the American and British Cultural centers in Cairo. Three organizations were believed to be responsible for the attack: The January 15 organization, which had sent a letter bomb to the Israeli ambassador to London in January; the Egyptian Revolutionary Organization that from out 1984-1986 carried out attacks against U.S. and Israeli targets; and the Nasserite Organization, which had attacked British and American targets in 1988.

June 12, 1989, Bosphorus Straits, Turkey. A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff. The explosion caused extensive damage but no casualties. An organization previously unknown, the Warriors of the June 16th Movement, claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 11, 1989, Izmir, Turkey. An explosive charge went off outside a U.S. military PX. Dev Sol was held responsible for the attack.

February 7, 1991, Incirlik Air Base, Turkey. Dev Sol members shot and killed a U.S. civilian contractor as he was getting into his car at the Incirlik Air Base in Adana, Turkey.

February 28, 1991, Izmir, Turkey. Two Dev Sol gunmen shot and wounded a U.S. Air Force officer as he entered his residence in Izmir.

October 28, 1991, Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack. The Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 28, 1991, Istanbul, Turkey. Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul. Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

January 25, 1993, Virginia, United States. A Pakistani gunman opened fire on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employees standing outside of the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and three others wounded. The assailant was never caught and reportedly fled to Pakistan.

February 26, 1993, New York, United States. A massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage below the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six and wounding 1,042. Four Islamist activists were responsible for the attack. Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the operation's alleged mastermind, escaped but was later arrested in Pakistan and extradited to the United States. Abd al-Hakim Murad, another suspected conspirator, was arrested by local authorities in the Philippines and handed over to the United States. The two, along with two other terrorists, were tried in the U.S. and sentenced to 240 years.

April 14, 1993, Kuwait. The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack two months later on the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.

July 5, 1993, Southeast Turkey. In eight separate incidents, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) kidnapped a total of 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey. The hostages, including U.S. citizen Colin Patrick Starger, were released unharmed after spending several weeks in captivity.

April 9, 1995, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip. Two suicide attacks were carried out within a few hours of each other in Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip. In the first attack a suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow. Over 30 others were injured. In the second attack, a suicide bomber detonated a car bomb in the midst of a convoy of cars in Kfar Darom, injuring 12. The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) Shaqaqi Faction claimed responsibility for the attacks.

July 4, 1995, Kashmir, India. In Kashmir, a previously unknown militant group, Al-Faran, with suspected links to a Kashmiri separatist group in Pakistan, took hostage six tourists, including two U.S. citizens. They demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. One of the U.S. citizens escaped on July 8, while on August 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found along with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. The Indian Government refused. Both Indian and American authorities believe the rest of the hostages were most likely killed in 1996 by their jailers.

August 1995, Istanbul, Turkey. A bombing of Istanbul's popular Taksim Square injured two U.S. citizens. This attack was part of a three-year-old attempt by the PKK to drive foreign tourists away from Turkey by striking at tourist sites.

August 21, 1995, Jerusalem, Israel. A bus bombing in Jerusalem by the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) killed four, including American Joan Davenny, and wounded more than 100.

November 9, 1995, Algiers, Algeria. Islamic extremists set fire to a warehouse belonging to the U.S. Embassy, threatened the Algerian security guard because he was working for the United States, and demanded to know whether any U.S. citizens were present. The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) probably carried out the attacks. The group had threatened to strike other foreign targets and especially U.S. objectives in Algeria, and the attack's style was similar to past GIA operations against foreign facilities.

November 13, 1995, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. A car bomb exploded in the parking lot outside of the Riyadh headquarters of the Office of the Program Manager/Saudi Arabian National Guard, killing seven persons, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding 42. The blast severely damaged the three-story building, which houses a U.S. military advisory group, and several neighboring office buildings. Three groups -- the Islamic Movement for Change, the Tigers of the Gulf, and the Combatant Partisans of God -- claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 25, 1996, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another three U.S. citizens. Hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing.

March 4, 1996, Tel Aviv, Israel. A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device outside the Dizengoff Center, Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall, killing 20 persons and injuring 75 others, including two U.S. citizens. Both Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing. May 13, 1996, Beit-El, West Bank. Arab gunmen opened fire on a hitchhiking stand near Beit El, wounding three Israelis and killing David Boim, 17, an American- Israeli from New York. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, although either the Islamic Jihad or Hamas are suspected.

June 9, 1996, Zekharya, West Bank. Yaron Ungar, an American-Israeli, and his Israeli wife were killed in a drive-by shooting near their West Bank home. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine is suspected.

June 25, 1996, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the U.S. military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack. In June 2001, a U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, identified Saudi Hizballah as the party responsible for the attack. The court indicated that the members of the organization, banned from Saudi Arabia, "frequently met and were trained in Lebanon, Syria, or Iran" with Libyan help.

August 17, 1996, Mapourdit, Sudan. Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S citizen. The SPLA released the hostages on August 28.

November 1, 1996, Sudan. A breakaway group of the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three workers of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), including one U.S citizen. The rebels released the hostages on December 9 in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey of their camp.

December 3, 1996, Paris, France. A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.

February 23, 1997, New York, United States. Ali Hassan Abu Kamal, a Palestinianteacher, opened fire on the 86th-floor observation deck of New York City's Empire State Building, killing killing a Danish national and wounding six others before shooting himself to death. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

July 30, 1997, Jerusalem, Israel. Two bombs detonated in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market, killing 15 persons, including a U.S. citizen and wounding 168 others, among them two U.S. citizens. The Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 30, 1997, Sanaa, Yemen. Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. The hostage was released on November 27.

November 12, 1997, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum and their Pakistani driver as they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. Two groups claimed responsibility -- the Islamic Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council and the Aimal Secret Committee, also known as the Aimal Khufia Action Committee.

November 25, 1997, Aden, Yemen. Yemenite tribesmen kidnapped a U.S citizen, two Italians, and two unspecified Westerners near Aden to protest the eviction of a tribe member from his home. The kidnappers released the five hostages on November 27.

April 19, 1998, Maon, Israel. Dov Driben, a 28-year-old American-Israeli farmer was killed by terrorists near the West Bank town of Maon. One of his assailants, Issa Debavseh, a member of Fatah Tanzim, was killed on November 7, 2001, by the IDF after being on their wanted list for the murder.

June 21, 1998, Beirut, Lebanon. Three rocket-propelled grenades attached to a crude detonator exploded near the U.S. Embassy compound in Beirut, causing no casualties and little damage.

August 7, 1998, Nairobi, Kenya. A car bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi. The attack killed a total of 292, including 12 U.S. citizens, and injured over 5,000, among them six Americans. The perpetrators belonged to al-Qaida, Usama bin Ladin's network.

August 7, 1998, Dar es Sala'am, Tanzania. A car bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Sala'am, killing 11 and injuring 86. Osama bin Laden's organization al-Qaida claimed responsibility for the attack. Two suspects were arrested.

November 21, 1998, Teheran, Iran. Members of Fedayeen Islam, shouting anti-American slogans and wielding stones and iron rods, attacked a group of American tourists in Tehran. Some of the tourists suffered minor injuries from flying glass.

December 28, 1998, Mawdiyah, Yemen. Sixteen tourists--12 Britons, two Americans and two Australians--were taken hostage in the largest kidnapping in Yemen's recent history. The tourists were seized in the Abyan province (some 175 miles south of Sanaa the capital). One Briton and a Yemeni guide escaped, while the rest were taken to city of Mawdiyah. Four hostages were killed when troops closed in and two were wounded, including an American woman. The kidnappers, members of the Islamic Army of Aden-Abyan, an offshoot of Al-Jihad, had demanded the release from jail of their leader, Saleh Haidara al-Atwi.

October 31, 1999, Nantucket, Massachusetts, United States. EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans. Although it is not precisely clear what happened, evidence indicated that an Egyptian pilot, Ahmed el-Habashy, crashed the plane for personal or political reasons.

October 12, 2000, Aden Harbor, Yemen. A suicide squad rammed the warship the U.S.S. Cole with an explosives-laden boat killing 13 American sailors and injuring 33. The attack was likely by Osama bin Ladin's al-Qaida organization.

October 30, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Gunmen killed Eish Kodesh Gilmor, a 25-year-old American-Israeli on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute in Jerusalem. The "Martyrs of the Al-Aqsa Intifada," a group linked to Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. Gilmor's family filed a suit in the U.S. District Court in Washington against the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, Chairman Yasser Arafat and members of Force 17, as being responsible for the attack.

May 9, 2001, Tekoa, West Bank. Kobi Mandell, 14, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and Hizballah, claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 29, 2001, Gush Etzion, West Bank. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for a drive-by shooting of six in the West Bank that killed two American-Israeli citizens, Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein.

August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, a pizzeria situated in one of the busiest areas of downtown Jerusalem, killed 15 people, including a 31-year-old tourist from New Jersey, Shoshana Greenbaum and wounded more than 90. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

September 11, 2001, New York, Washington D.C., and Pennsylvania, United States. During a carefully coordinated attack, 19 Islamist extremists hijacked four U.S. jetliners and forced them to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, and more than 3,000 people were killed on the ground. U.S. investigators determined on the basis of extensive evidence that Usama bin Ladin's al-Qaida group was responsible for the attack. The first plane, American Airlines Flight 11 en route from Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:48 a.m. Eighteen minutes later, United Airlines Flight 175, also headed from Boston to Los Angeles, smashed into the World Trade Center's south tower. At 9:40 a.m. a third airplane, an American Airlines Boeing 757 that left Washington's Dulles International Airport for Los Angeles, crashed into the western part of the Pentagon where 24,000 people worked. The fourth plane, a United Airlines Flight 93 flying from Newark to San Francisco, crashed near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, most likely before it could hit its target. Hundreds of firefighters, police officers and other rescue workers who arrived in the site after the first plane crash were killed or injured.

January 15, 2002, Bethlehem, West Bank. Avraham Boaz, 71, a dual Israeli-American citizen, was kidnapped at a Palestinian Authority (PA) security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.

January 27, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in downtown Jerusalem killing one elderly Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and 16 and 12-year-old daughters. Sokolow had earlier survived the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.

July 31, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Seven people including four Americans, Marla Bennett (24) of San Diego, California, David Gritz (24) of Peru, Massachusetts, Benjamin Blutstein (25) of Susquehanna Township, Pennsylvania and Janis Ruth Coulter (36) from New York were murdered when a remote-controlled bomb detonated in the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria on Jerusalem's Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus. Eighty-six others were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.




Can anyone tell me what all of the above terrorist attacks have in common? This is easier than a "Where's Waldo" game. But unfortunately, it's not a game.
It's hard to believe, after so many years of terror, that there are still people in this country that can't see who the enemy is. I thought 9/11 would be enough, for some it obviously wasn't. Sad. Very sad.

[Frosty]

What you say about the terrorist attacks is true, Real. Islamic radicals are probably responsible for over 90% of the terrorist attacks in this day and age. But it is not fair to the other Muslims to exterminate a huge portion of them. Look at all the Muslims who support the U.S. in Iraq. It's such a small percentage of them who actually support the terror movement....

This issue strikes me close to the heart. One of my best friends is a Muslim. I know him pretty well, and he would never even think about doing such things. He is embarrased and apalled that these radicals have done such horrible things in the name of his religion. So, where's the justice our nation stands for if he is killed becasue he is a muslim? It's gone, and the terror worked, plain and simple.

I am a Christian. A conservative, some may even say "fundamentalist Christian." I hate that people have done sick things in Christ's name. The Crusades, fierce anti-Semitism, murders of abortion doctors, money scams.... But if Christianity were deemed a dangerous belief system because of the things those people have done, would justice be served if I were punished for them?

In a sense, it's kind of like dealing with hacks in a video game. No matter what anti-cheat measures are put into place, the hacker will find away around them to strike. It's really the same with terrorism. No matter how well a nation prepares its security, the advantage goes to the terrorist. He can watch, learn, and wait until the moment is right to attack. The only way it will end is if the value system of the terrorists themselves changes. As it is, to them, even if nothing else is gained, causing pain and death to innocent people under the governments they oppose is satisfaction enough. There is no respect for human life, only a militaristic push for the free reign of Islam.

The reason we have to stand up is that it will not stop in the Middle East. Right now, the war is to drive the "infidels" from their homeland. They get this from their interpretation of the Koran's teachings (I will be politically correct and refer to it as their interpretation, despite the fact that they seem to actually follow the example of Islam's "founder"). Say they succeed, and the entire Middle East is Islamic exactly the way they want it to be. Will they be happy? No.

It is a religious and "moralistic" war they fight. It's a sick, twisted moralism, but that is how they perceive it. They will not stop, but will continue the quest to drive the "infidels" from the planet, for that is their religious duty. To create a world entirely dedicated to Allah, or whatever. No religious freedom, and no tolerance. Be a devout Muslim, or die.

These views are not the views of your ordinary Muslim, don't get me wrong. That would be like saying that every Christian wants to see gays, abortion doctors, muslims and jews slaughtered. But there is a small, albeit very active and determined, percentage of people who do hold them, and they are very dangerous and need to be stopped somehow. But in doing so, as holden said, we can't abandon the values of the Constitution. Then we lose. Doesn't that suck?

[Opeth]

Time to bring out the nukes.  ENOUGH talking already.  This is total bullshit.

That's all I have to say.

This is exactly the kind of kneejerk reaction that we do not need. Who are you going to nuke anyway?

How about we start with Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to name a few. Our enemy is muslim and wears a turbon(sic?). That's what I know.

And for those muslims here in the U.S, it's time for internment camps again.

Sorry, just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

The muslims have been fighting their holy was for 1000 years. It's going to take DRASTIC measures to stop them. Drastic times call for drastic measures. We are in drastic times. Wake up folks, we are losing the war on terror. We cannot fight a "politically correct" war. It's not going to work. Innocent people are going to die this is true. But innocent people are being killed everyday by terrorists.

Remember Pearl Harbor? Pretty drastic huh? Fast forward to Hiroshima... pretty drastic huh? But I think our point was made loud and clear.

We need to do something drastic. It's the ONLY way we can win the war on terror. You cannot negotiate with these people.

I think the so-called "abuse" at Gitmo got more press in the U.S. than yesterday's terrorist attacks in London. Something's wrong with that. Something's wrong with the way our country is heading.

We cannot continue on like this and something drastic must be done.

And I am very serious about my above statements.

what are you, 12?

[realdeal]

what are you, 12?

Rather than trying to insult Opeth, why not address the issue at hand. Or is that too deep for you?

[realdeal]

This issue strikes me close to the heart. One of my best friends is a Muslim. I know him pretty well, and he would never even think about doing such things. He is embarrased and apalled that these radicals have done such horrible things in the name of his religion.

Then he and the rest of the so-called "embarassed" Muslims need to speak out and condemn all of these attacks. They need to be vigiliant within their own communities and weed out the radicals among them.

They haven't done this. Sure, a few have, but not nearly enough.

If the Muslims started to cry out and speak out against these attacks, that would surely be a good start. But it's not happening.

[Opeth]

what are you, 12?

Rather than trying to insult Opeth, why not address the issue at hand. Or is that too deep for you?

I don't know a solution to stop the threat but Im sure mass Genocide won't do much other then piss off more people.

[realdeal]

what are you, 12?

Rather than trying to insult Opeth, why not address the issue at hand. Or is that too deep for you?

I don't know a solution to stop the threat but Im sure mass Genocide won't do much other then piss off more people.

So then I would assume that you were against the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[Opeth]

what are you, 12?

Rather than trying to insult Opeth, why not address the issue at hand. Or is that too deep for you?

I don't know a solution to stop the threat but Im sure mass Genocide won't do much other then piss off more people.

So then I would assume that you were against the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

That was a war between two nations.

[TheGhost]

Hey, the bombings of Hirsoshima and Nagasaki showed the Japanese one thing. DONT FUCK WITH US, and I'm pretty damn sure that they never did again. So, do the same thing to them, chances are they (the turban toters) dont believe we will do it. But once, and if, we do they will probably realize that we could wipe them out.

This post has been edited by TheGhost: 07/08/05 5:50pm

[realdeal]

That was a war between two nations.

Ahh... then what if the US formally declares war on nations that harbor terrorists?

[Opeth]

How about after the US nukes the middle east The US government gives all the brown people patches to sow on their sleeves and lock them up in their own fenced off sections of cities. Then once they convince the american white people that everything that goes wrong in their life is to blame on the Terrorist(ie. Anyone with brown skin or looks like they could come the the middle east) they can ship the terrorist off the camps where they can be shoved into ovens(cheaper so that the government can spend more on military instead of a Health Care system or something else the people need ) to be killed.

I think you should switch to the axis side every once in a while when you play mohaa RD, you would fit right in with them.

This post has been edited by Opeth: 07/08/05 6:25pm

[realdeal]

How about after the US nukes the middle east The US government gives all the brown people patches to sow on their sleeves and lock them up in their own fenced off sections of cities.  Then once they convince the american white people that everything that goes wrong in their life is to blame on the Terrorist(ie. Anyone with brown skin or looks like they could come the the middle east) they can ship the terrorist off the camps where they can be shoved into ovens(cheaper so that the government can spend more on military instead of a Health Care system or something else the people need ) to be killed.

Very enlightning Opeth. Maybe it will take for Canada to get hit before you get it.

[Silver]

i could see internment, and like i have said 100 times on these forum. all hell will break loose when some arab american commits a home invasion and sets up his web cam and takes the head off a white suburban american family. think it wont happen? walmart has EVERYTHING to do it.(LOL) so will placing arab muslim american in internment camps (for protective custody) a bad thing? will you have dinner with your muslim co-worker alone after that? if the muslim world was SOOOO concerned about clearing their religion, then why dont they handle this themselves? why dont they hand over the dangerous muslim clerics? what you dont think they know who they are? your kidding me right?
i have to say one thing that was totally postive about all this, it brought america together. black and white have united (damn even the blacks and jews in nyc) to fight the common good. (ironic) which is why we have been asskickers here in america for a long time. we have always been united. (well vietnam wasnt a war...just remember that) oh and the talk about us nuking japan...that was done to save hundreds of thousands of american lives. now with nukes being sold as much as unregistered guns in america, would nuking the tora bora region (taliban hide out area...if that isnt it) a bad thing? what about chemical weapons? see what really gets me going is that people like you cry over this shit. almost like these people that say oh its not his fault its society that made them this way....well great....fuck'em.... they did the crime and now they pay. tim Mc Veigh may have had help from what terrorist org? hello...anyone there???

OH and real 7-7-05 london england 2 sister from tennesse were injured in the blast....arabs? muslims? hummm when the terrorists behead an american on our soil put your family (wife and kids) between them and the rest of the population...see what happens...

oh and i like the oven idea.... alive so we dont have to waste ammo...
just be real happy that i dont run the country.

This post has been edited by Silver: 07/08/05 6:36pm

[holden_caulfield]

For sheer length, that's an impressive list Real, but again, I ask you so what?

I'm pretty sure everybody in this forum realizes that terrorism is a modern invention of the militant Islamists. So what, how does that justify arbitrarily locking up all the arab-AERICANS on the grounds that they didn't voice their opposition to YOUR satisfaction? Who are you to set the standards, and since when did good arab-americans become beholden to citizen RealDeal's standards of 'patriotism'?

You see, I mentioned Timothy McVeigh as an example of insanity, but if you paid attention to my arguments, you would have seen the ridiculousness of your own positions. And you sidestepped the question entire question, as if the US can only have 1 enemy at a time (that being arabs). Shall I be more specific? Shall I provide a long list of militia activities in the US, actively campaigning against the government? If we can lock up all the arabs, then surely we can lock up the whites too. Only seems fair in the protection of the US. Let's lock em all up Real. Let's nuke everything.

After 9/11, it doesn't make sense why a group of AMERICANS, as an ethnic block, should have to coordinate themselves and demonstrate their loyalty just because You can't accept the fact that they are as American as you and I. You're not above anyone else here.

Frosty hits it right on the head.

nice job.