I'll bring it up.... Options

[holden_caulfield]

What we need is another Revolution

I just love how you capitalized "Revolution" too. Ahahahaha. Not just any revolution--THE "R"evolution.

That's just hilarious I don't know why.

[realdeal]

Yes, making a distinction between two equally legal groups of citizens based on race and then segregating them is racist. Somehow, the fact that arab-americans are arabs means that their rights will be stripped from them.

I'm not offended by your racism. Be as racist as you want, nobody is going to stop you.

Once again, pay attention to my post. The bulk of this debate concerns American citizens, not foreign civilians who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Your ideas are laughable, and I have no qualms calling them such. Whether I have an answer of my own or not doesn't make your ideas any less laughable.

Way to skirt around my points Typical.

[Frosty]

Flag burning- I think that burning the flag should be illegal. It does not symbolize protest, but anarchy. If someone wants to use the flag in protest, then they should either wave a dirty flag or make a big display of washing one. That shows that they think the country is doing something wrong, or "dirty," and needs to be cleansed.

The war- "Embarassed" Muslims have been speaking out. In Evansville, my hometown, IMMEDIATELY after the 9/11 attacks there were several newscasts and interviews with the imam of the local mosque speaking out against the attacks. The Islamic center opened its doors to the entire community and encouraged them to come and check out what was going on there. Heck, the imam even gave me an interview for a research paper I was writing at the time about Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. If you recall, many people converted to Islam in America after the attacks. The logic there somewhat baffled me at first, but given all the active explaining of Islam by "embarassed" muslims, many found themselves drawn to that religion.

The only real problem with the racial profiling and internment in this case is that because Islam is a religion, the terrorists aren't necessarily arab. You could have white terrorists, or more likely than that you could have black terrorists (that's not a prejudice on my part, it's just that a greater percentage of blacks are Islamic than whites). The terrorism isn't necessarily linked to a specific racial group. In fact, I'd bet that if we did move against arabs in general, we would find that attacks would be made from white, black, and asian muslims as well. Terrorists from all over the world. Nukes would not solve that problem either.

In my mind, there are three ways to stop terrorism. One is to kowtow to the terrorists' every demand. The second is to kill all terrorists (easier said than done). And the third is to restrict freedoms in order to catch them. Which one is right? I don't know, but I do know that the first is wrong, and that in order to achieve the second, a nuke would fail.

[holden_caulfield]

Once again, pay attention to my post. The bulk of this debate concerns American citizens, not foreign civilians who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Actually Real, you are the one who is going off topic.

But to make things even clearer, collateral damage is fine, so long as collateral damage = foreign civilians. I tried to make that distinction between foreign civilians and AMERICAN CITIZENS, because, as I recall, we are talking about the latter, and then you bring up the former, trying to divert attention from the latter, and when I call you on it, you accuse me of sidestepping. Tricky.

[holden_caulfield]

However, I suppose you wanted to talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki (didn't you?). And I guess, if I get creative, I can see where you're coming from--an inordinate amount of civilian casualties in the name of war and national defense.

How should I put this... We dropped two massive bombs on enemy cities (enemy cities, ok. follow me, enemy cities), cities where lots of non-combatants lived, in order to save the lives of American soldiers. In WWII, bombs were stupid, in that they weren't guided, so we dropped a shitload of them on cities hoping to destroy war factories and the like. Of course, lots of enemy civilians (for lack of a better term) were killed.

It is tragic. But... follow me here... I don't object to it, because it's part of life and unavoidable. This so called "collateral damage" (what is this thing that he speaks of?) does indeed send shivers down my spend, not because I am a liberal (since when did liberals shiver at collateral damage--we waged the Vietnam war for chrissakes) but because as a compassionate human being, I understand and sympathize with the tragedies of this world. There's a difference. That being said, collateral damage, as I will quote myself here so the point is not lost

is tragic. But... follow me here... I don't object to it, because it's part of life and unavoidable.

See there? That wasn't so bad. Now, moving back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which I

don't object to it, because it's part of life and unavoidable.

, moving back there, I will point out that the situation in WWII is different than the situation you and I have been discussing in this thread, because, as I've been pointing out, you and I are, for the most part, talking about the treatment of AMERICAN CIVILIANS (arab-americans), as opposed to ENEMY CIVILIANS (japanese civilians of wwii). How you have made the leap to substitute Arab-Americans (american civilians) for Japanese civilians of wwii (enemy civilians) is beyond me. I suppose you tried with the collateral damage option ("they're both collateral damage, man"), but that really doesn't work. Collateral damage is too broad, can be applied to anything (even you perhaps?) and it really doesn't support the argument.

You also mentioned that... I had retreated from your earlier "points" by questioning whether they were even valid facts or not, when, in fact, no retreat had taken place. The "point" I had been subtly making--over and over and over again (*shrug)--was that your assertions were not valid on the grounds that they were based on personal beliefs and observations. You had tried to pass them off as "facts" ("it's a fact that muslim americans blah blah blah), when, upon closer inspection, one must question where this asssertion came from. I sense a... "but it's obvious just look around you you damn liberal!" but I am not sure, and some illumination would be appreciated.

And for your sake, I'm not even going to bring up the RD special: "let's-nuke-the-middle-east-and-fuck-the-questions-after" plan. That's for a whole 'nother thread, and I'd prefer to stay out of it and watch Ghost lap it up while he plans his "R"evolution.

[realdeal]

When we get hit again I hope it's in your neck of the woods in C.A. Maybe then you'd see it from a different point of view. Maybe me living next to World Trade Center has clouded my views in some ways but those are my views nonetheless and I couldn't disagree more with your post.

[Silver]

you know what gets me is that you touch on alot of issues and have a spicy comment for everything that is said but every time you talk you dont have any DEPTH to what you say. you say that nuking the middle east is a bad thing. well what about areas that are heavly concentrated with enemy fighters? The mountian areas of afganastan which are only accessable 6 months out of the year. so the other 6 months they build up more combat ready troops and can resupply. now we cant touch them. a nuke or 2 would level the mountian....Hummmmm...sounds good!

now for your other thoughts holden, how come you can say to everyone here that their Ideas are wrong but yet you dont have any? you approve racial profiling but yet you dont agree with interment to weed out the good from the bad. (intresting enough, im not sure that would work either because the muslim community would hide who they are. now if we stop letting in every person that wants in and use racial profiling to our advantage that would slow any attack comming. but for the people that go to mosques that are funded by muslim extremeists and have anti-american and anti-israel activists in there mists, they deserve to be interned. anyone that was born in country that has these terrorist communitys...syria, iraq, afganistan, pakastan, lybia, eqypt, etc...

Now please tell me i am racist...please, please, please!!!!! Do i think that people should be bothered with investigating the arab doctor that spent 20 years here...no...now if he is sending money home...yes...certian people can be passed by because of a few diffrent reason. but we should be sorting these people out. honestly my biggest fear is that these groups will start funding our "militia's" and then we have a problem. we need to get these people on our side and use them like the minutemen campaign. that can free up alot of resources in our local gov. which will in turn lighten the load on the federal level. do i care if we take these people here and revoke there green cards and send some people that are americans to internment camps...no...arab americans do need to be investigated for terrorist links only. i am not for big goverment, not am i for programs like carnivore that the fbi has used..and changed its name to something more feasible. but i do believe we ahve to protect ourselves from becomming like israel.

[realdeal]

Now I KNOW I'm wasting my time....

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/catcher/terms/char_1.html

[Flashgirl]

Your last post proves one thing.  You are the type of person that is contributing in the ruination of this country.  For any point that I made that you couldn't reply to, you ask if that's a fact or assertion.  Then you continue on to call me racist.  Hmmm.. let's see.. if 95% of the terrorist attacks in the world are carried out by Muslim men, it would make perfect sense to you to start investigating Japanese men for possible terrorism links.

I bet your the guy who thinks that racial profiling in this instance is wrong too.  I'm sure to you it makes perfect sense for airport security to strip seach a 90 year old lady in a wheel chair right?  We know what the enemy looks like, so why do pretend that we don't?  Because it's not politically correct?  PLEASE.  This isn't the time to be politically correct.

Wake up and smell the roses.

Interesting. I just popped into this post this morning.. and I think you are right RD... I am also a fine example of our "step up" on security in our airports.

I had a plane ticket ordered for me via the internet ... Ordered on a sunday . ticket issued for that tuesday.. My ticket was tagged as a threat to secuirty.. on the bottom right it had red lettering .........I was picked out of the thousands of people at O'Hare Airport as a threat and was pulled out and made to feel like dirt, and an embarassment for all to see.....I was searched.. taken thru the security several times.. and not one part of my person was not searched... my belongings... everything....



Now I am all for stricter security measures... but come on a 30 something mother of 3 going from the BIG CITY to the hills of Pennsylvania.

We are targeting the wrong people.. we are trying to be soo "politicial correct" and sooo country friendly that we left the terrorists from 9/11 come to Florida and train to fly our own airplanes..... live in our country ....... and then use that hospitality to attack us...

You know my son had to write a report about our country and what has been going on .. and interestingly enough he has been paying attention....

He said.. The example our country is showing that .. take two homes with children and parents.. and in that one home the children are getting ignored.. because their parents are paying too much attention to the neighbors kids.. and the ignored children are getting hurt from lack of time and consideration....

Just my thoughts.................

[Druid]

As for the flag burning part of the topic I consider part of the underlying problem of political correctness hampering the war on terror.
Rep. John Conyers {Dem}, who has been outspoken on his opposition to a flag burning admenment has recently intruduced a a resolution in the House that the Koran not be disrespected nor defiled. Another cheap attempt by a politician to get a little more air time with the controversy of koran handling at gitmo.

[Frosty]

Rep. John Conyers {Dem}, who has been outspoken on his opposition to a flag burning admenment has recently intruduced a a resolution in the House that the Koran not be disrespected nor defiled.

But I bet no one would look twice if a Bible were flushed or burned.... Not even Christians. It is a book for crying out loud. If the message is truly sacred, then who cares what happens to one copy of it? It's not like anyone can take away the message it contains by "defiling" the book.

[TheGhost]

Now I KNOW I'm wasting my time....

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/catcher/terms/char_1.html

Real i could've told you that. Holden Caulfied = naive child who doesnt want to grow up and open his eyes to the world around him. I did a Character Analysis Essay for english on him. OFF TOPIC** But Catcher In The Rye is a good book.

[Silver]

As for the flag burning part of the topic I consider part of the underlying problem of political correctness hampering the war on terror.
Rep. John Conyers {Dem}, who has been outspoken on his opposition to a flag burning admenment has recently intruduced a a resolution in the House that the Koran not be disrespected nor defiled. Another cheap attempt by a politician to get a little more air time with the controversy of koran handling at gitmo.

you know what...i have burned flags as a way to get rid of the old, torn tattered flag. i see no disrespect in wearing a flag on your pants or (as i seen with a few friends at a skynard concert) a couple screw wrapped in one. (thought that was kinda cool)... but when me and a few friends went into the flag store across town to buy a afganistan flag...(to burn) their first question was what are you going to do with it... so i told them....they refused to sell me one...and come to find out i could have been arrested for burning any flag...cant open burn in the city.....

[Silver]

Rep. John Conyers {Dem}, who has been outspoken on his opposition to a flag burning admenment has recently intruduced a a resolution in the House that the Koran not be disrespected nor defiled.

But I bet no one would look twice if a Bible were flushed or burned.... Not even Christians. It is a book for crying out loud. If the message is truly sacred, then who cares what happens to one copy of it? It's not like anyone can take away the message it contains by "defiling" the book.

one word- rolling papers....

in jail a few guys would use pages from the bible to roll weed and smokes... (for outside tampon paper works well, off topic i know) now no one would get mad in there, there is a big racial and religious devide. anyone been to jail knows that much.

This post has been edited by Silver: 07/09/05 1:40pm

[holden_caulfield]

Well I guess this fun little trip to crazyland is winding down so I'll just wrap up my comments here, unless one of you guys (ghost?) posts something so provocative or insulting that I'll just HAVE to respond. Or not, we'll see.

lol. Say what you want, but Catcher in the Rye kicks ass. At least theGhost can recognize good literature.

I like Holden Caulfield for his naive idealism, his ironic bitterness, and the gusto with which he condemns the world. Hence the handle. Yeah, he has his flaws, and his blindness is a central theme, but that just adds to the greatness of the book. Well, that's the whole point really. Do I walk around with a red hunting cap? No. Well, only if I'm playing MOH. And even then it's to keep me warm.

You'll have to scroll down that link to find the red hunting cap bit. Sparknotes, by the way, kicks ass. But all you guys in school probably know that.

RD you have wasted your time--indeed you are still wasting your time--but unfortunately, that's all your own doing. I suppose we are too instransigent, and I suppose we can both be thankful that neither of us are in power. But I still have to deal with Bush, so I think you end up ahead there. *shrug. He'll be gone soon enough.

People, I am a liberal, not a democrat, and there's a subtle difference. Liberals possess a philosophy. Democrats are the people who (try to) implement that philosophy the best way they see fit. A lot of times they fuck up, and I coudln't agree with you guys more about PC crap and the Koran abuse. It's a fucking book!!! Same for the bible or even Catcher in the Rye. A fucking book. But if you could read only one of those two, go spend some time with Holden.

But if you read the bible, go with the King James. Pretty english.

Some dems go too far on certain issues. Doesn't mean I'm going with them (affirmative action, for instance). Religion. ugh.



Silver, I've pretty much ignored all your posts because, believe it or not, they are more outlandish than RealDeal's. But to completely ignore you wouldn't be nice so I'll just respond here. Nuclear bombs do not "level mountains." They don't even completely level dense cities residing in between mountain valleys (nagasaki). Are you aware of how much mass a mountain has? The rest of your claims will have to stand as they are (remember that arab clerk who disappeared on sept. 10?), for which I apologize to the rest of the community. I am drained. (Sorry, I don't know how to convey that thought with any more "depth").

Criticizing another's ideas doesn't mean I have to come up with one of my own. Surprisingly, a lot of people get really caught up over this. They say, "Hey, you're such a critic but you can't even do better!" Well, Plato had something to say about this in "The Republic." You know, that part which... currently eludes me. But it's there, you'll recognize it immediately when you read it.

It's not like I said, "Your idea is lame, I can do better," and then failed to deliver anything. No, I never promised anything, though I think that if I tried, I really could do better (I find your idea just that bad). Why can't people just accept that the merits of one man's ideas is independent of whether the critic has any ideas of his own?

It's like we're all gazing at this enormous and complex differential equation--mystified--when suddenly RealDeal and co., blurt out that the answer is... 24 degrees Celsius. But it can't be, and so I'm just telling you that you need to check your answer, maybe take a closer look at how you got there. I don't have the solution--but I know that you can't be right, because you're not even coming up with the right units.

That was an analogy. Obviously I'm not God-like, I don't "know" the right or wrong answer, but I feel strongly you are nowhere near it, and I think I was fair in telling you why.

I mean, nuking the Middle East? I give it an A for boldness.

Druid, I guess we'll leave flag burning up to the states.

FlashGirl, I don't know you, except by that longass thread you started. But airport security is a joke. And like I said, racial profiling, if done right, isn't such a bad thing. There, another departure from "liberalism." It sucks when they hassle you, make you take off your shoes. I lost my Giants cap because of that. Bastards. Fuckin' Giants...

Frosty--right on man, write on.

And Ghost, you get pretty fired up. I'm just suggesting that you go back and read every single one of your posts, then try to find out where you built your arguments. I don't think you did. Lots of ranting and emotion and unjustified claims. At least Real had syllogisms to work with.

Real, when we get hit again, I hope it's in my neck of the woods too. That way I can use it to leverage my arguments and justify my racism!

Pretty ridiculous thing to say, if you think about it. Pretty punitive. A civilized way of saying it would be, "I hope you could understand things from my perspective as a NY citizen who witnessed 9/11 firstand." Sans the "I hope it happens in your backyard!" Now that would have been diplomatic and respectable.

When we get hit again I hope it's in your neck of the woods in C.A.

Classy. But you're just telling it like you see it.