Barbarossa tactics and strategy Options

[Slyk]

Concept for debate:
You are Russian. You man the North Road 45mm. Multiple Panzers are crossing the bridge. I would argue that it is more beneficial to hit as many of the panzers as many times as possible before you are overwhelmed. The theory being that if you knock some health off of each tank, any support troops to your rear now have a higher chance of taking out tanks with either satchels or one rocket to the front/side of each tank. Opposing view of trying to eliminate one tank at a time would often mean one or more full-health tanks pass you on their way to Russian base 1 and 3, making it harder on your team to eliminate them quickly.

Thoughts?

[Silver]

you would be correct since soon as the tanks pass the bridge they can go left and avoid the gun... try and shell the shit out of the first tank so its stuck on the bridge and can destroy the rest, because they can pass.... if the first tanks goes by shell the rest and get out

[Hellfighter]

you would be correct since soon as the tanks pass the bridge they can go left and avoid the gun... try and shell the shit out of the first tank so its stuck on the bridge and can destroy the rest, because they can pass.... if the first tanks goes by shell the rest and get out

Now assuming the Germ team have decided on the left flank panzer column assault Rommel would be proud of, it'd be a good idea for one German to elect themselves as a sniper and fly off at the round start in a jeep/halftrack to the bridge-stream bank and pick off the 45mm gunner AND toss smoke ahead of the bridge to also confound russian armour that make it to the hilltop behind the 45mm about the same time the panzer column arrives at the bridge. What I like doing is drawing russian tankfire with the halftracks which maybe the 3rd mission for that Germ sniper/smoker, which is to rush flank wide left to make any rusky tanks swivel their guns away from thr bridge crossers. Most essential is that no panzers engage in a firefight behind the bridge but push ahead regardless of damage to flank left if alive so that other armour behind can cross and deploy in a line for maximum firepower.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 01/18/06 11:44am

[Maj. H8Red]

You are Russian. You man the North Road 45mm. Multiple Panzers are crossing the bridge. I would argue that it is more beneficial to hit as many of the panzers as many times as possible before you are overwhelmed.

I agree, it is better to inflict at least a little damage rather than none at all. Ya gotta put as many shells on the bridge as possible while there's traffic on it & hopefully kill some Krauts in the process....

[Slyk]

As we designed the map and vehicles, we readily understood the value and tactical implications of combined arms. I think that North road offers a text book lesson as to armor movement, infantry support/vehicles, arty support via #3 pak and the value of a sniper to clear the Russian 45. A proper tank column headed by a Stug or PzIV followed up by 1 or more tanks and then halftracks can make a real mess for the Russians. Another angle is the jeep rush to neutralize the north side pak, and then stiffle any Russian armor pouring over the ridge. Of course, this tactic depends greatly on the number of Russians spawning at #1 and being in position to counter.

To me, the key for the Russians is to hold that north ridge/pass. The longer they can and the more Germans they kill/vehicles they manage to destroy, the better. Once you get the German mind set to "we can't go left", then YOU can use that route to their #3 or to rout them exiting their spawn and press on #2.

[Maj. H8Red]

I think the North road is overlooked alot early in alot of matches, the Germans tend to attack Russian 2 first, being the easiest to attack. The mindset of "lets take out a base quickly to get the Russians scrambling" same with German 1. This ia a major mistake, due to spawning. Was the idea of no vehicles at German 1 by design? Same with Russian 2 (exception of jeep & ice cream truck)?

[Slyk]

I decided not to put too many vehicles near the front-most bases to prevent easy enemy caps. One transport vehicle, one tank, and one jeep within a short run. That way even though the bases are far forward, it is hard for the enemy to cap the tanks and dominate the area. I actually played some very intense drag-out matches between Russian #2 and German #1 being the LAST bases. That is some mayhem!

[Maj. H8Red]

yeah, sometimes the "easiest/closest" bases are the hardest to destroy, even though the G2 & R3 are the hardest to infiltrate. I played in a match last night (no time limit) about 5 v. 5 & actually finished both rounds within 40 mins. It's a rare occurance on that server! Teamwork & strategy go a long way.

[ScrapyardBob]

Yeah, losing the right flank around Russian #1 is bad for the russians... but merely a minor annoyance. Losing control of the back road where the tanks spawn by the 45mm gun is even worse. It basically leaves the russians with only the KV1 and the BT7 to fight off 3-6 german tanks. A lot of ruskies give up at that point and hunker down rather then commit suicide trying to retake the right flank. (And then, instead of learning that lesson... they stop guarding the right flank as soon as it's been retaken... <sighs>.)

One tactic that I haven't seen discussed yet (and it's a bit advanced?) is to control the spawn by parking your forces in the spawn point. Can you force the germans to spawn at German #1 if you get enough people behind their lines? (Likewise for the germans forcing Russians to spawn at Russian #2.)

I'm a bit hazy on the respawn algorithm. It seems to prefer to spawn you away from enemies and close to your forces.

[Slyk]

One tactic that I haven't seen discussed yet (and it's a bit advanced?) is to control the spawn by parking your forces in the spawn point. Can you force the germans to spawn at German #1 if you get enough people behind their lines? (Likewise for the germans forcing Russians to spawn at Russian #2.)

I'm a bit hazy on the respawn algorithm. It seems to prefer to spawn you away from enemies and close to your forces.

Probably you could force that spawn. You would have to be all over the other backup locations though. That would also require some armor support. And most likely it means you need infantry standing IN the spawn zone. Generally it is set to spawn away from enemy/near team. But the spawn logic has never been perfect in this game...you can never account for the random enemy running through your spawn just as you plop down into his lap.

[Maj. H8Red]

Slyk, is there a timeframe for completion for this map? Just curious.

[ScrapyardBob]

One thought I had looking at the early map (from your Jan 12th posting). Seems like Russian 1 should be flankable through that long N-S treeline. Or at least you shouldn't have to go past Russian 2 to get to Russian 1. Maybe it is and it just doesn't show on the overhead map.

And I'm very glad to see that the After-Hourz team decided to make a new UO map.

[Maj. H8Red]

Will the vehicles be stock, or current Barb tanks? Any possiblility of an Elephant or SU 152???

This post has been edited by Maj. H8Red: 01/21/06 1:40am

[ScrapyardBob]

Size-wise, how does the BAS area for the new Barbarossa map compare with the BAS area for the old Barbarossa map?

[ScrapyardBob]

More thoughts on strategy:

1) Just because you've lost the base on a particular hill is no reason not to give up control over that hill.

The germans have a bad habit of ignoring their right flank after G2 falls (as everyone rushes to the defense of G3). Same issue when they lose G3 (but not as severe because it's easier to exit the tank park and drive past G3). The russians have a bad habit of ignoring the R1 hill on the right flank after R1 has been lost.

If you want action, setup shop on a hill where the base has been destroyed. A sneaky russian infantryman on the R2 hill can provide early warning against left flank attacks. You can also be a huge thorn in the side of any german tanks who think it's fun to setup shop on the R2 hill and shell R3.

Germans at the ruined G1 base are a nasty surprise to any russian tank that is attempting to slip in via the south road. Half of the time that I attempt to bring a tank into play at G2 I end up getting damaged by a german hiding in the ruins of G1.

2) A single tank on the north pass by Russian #1 can hold off a lot of armor. A pair of players at the north pass (one on the 45mm and the other in a tank) can hold off even more germans.

The north pass at Russian #1 is a great place to practice turret-down and hull-down defense in a heavy tank (see the Wikipedia link for details). Most of the time, while waiting for targets you should go turret-down. (Stay on the lee side of the hill and you should just barely be able to see the bridge area over the crest of the hill in front of you.) A good analogy is to be like a tunnel spider, waiting for flies to wander into your kill zone. When you are turret-down, germans down at the bridge will not know your location unless they are using binoculars or a sniper scope.

As soon as you see movement down at the north bridge, you should alert teammates and creep forward to a hull-down position. Just after you creep forward enough to fire, you should reverse direction and creep backwards right before firing. This will give you a slight downward angle on your gun elevation, allowing you to hit lower targets without moving forward into a more exposed position. By rocking forward then back you are only exposed long enough to get a round off and you provide a very difficult firing solution for german gunners down at the bridge area.

No-so-smart germans will panic as the shells begin to fall. They'll attempt to backup to the cover of the house by the N bridge. This can cause traffic jams if you panic the first tank in the armor column. Basically, if you can keep them from crossing that bridge you'll probably win the engagement. Sometimes without taking any damage to your tank. Smarter germans will realize that they need to advance at speed in order to get out of the kill zone.

If the germans manage to get 2-3 vehicles into the N road fields, you're probably going to have a difficult time. Make every shot count. Hopefully, you had already notified your team about the german advance and have reinforcements on the way. If not, now is the time to cry for help (although it's going to be late to the party). If you have enemy infantry as far forward as the 45mm gun, it's time to fall back and attempt to keep them from getting over the north pass and into the house behind you.

(Remember the primary goal of defense is to deny territory and disrupt the enemy's plans / timetable. Stay alive and make them pay in time/blood for every meter of ground. The longer it takes them to advance, the greater the chance of your reinforcements arriving and driving off the assault.)

The other problem that you will face is germans sneaking in via the middle opening, walking up the riverbed towards R1 and shooting you in the rump. The only real solution for that is to rely on teammates to watch those sectors.