Most of you already know about the swift vets and their questions/attacks on Kerry.
The most common response by the Kerry Camp is most of the swift vets didn't SERVE with Kerry because they where on other boats.

It's a funny way to get around the subject.
Here is a funny picture, which I think points out the humor.

Unlike the closeness of this picture of these planes, the boats were not close.

They were not in the boat, period.

Let me also remind everyone this was 30 years ago.

Who gives a fuck, it's irrelevant and a waste of time to bicker about this issue. There is no viable reason that has yet been presented to me, detailing the importance of all this. Druid, Real, Ashe, care to share?

Sure!
The issue is that Kerry is basing his entire campaign on his military service record. If that's what he wants to base it on, then questions about his service are fair game, especially if there are falsities involved.

I would love nothing more for both sides to drop this issue so that we can start talking about what I consider even more important, like Kerry's 20 year record in the senate.

The man's been a senator for 20 years... doesn't anyone else think it's odd that he is not basing his campaign on his senate record?

There's a reason for this people.

Here's just a sample:

http://www.gop.com/RNCResearch/Read.aspx?ID=4552

**WARNING RANT AHEAD**

My wife is a die-hard democrat. I knew this when I started dating her. I also knew (or at the time at least believed) she was an open minded individual (actually, she's not). She has looked forward to every interview she could see with Kerry. She hates G.W. We live in Dallas, which makes it even worse. Even she agrees that Kerry's interviews are crap. He just will not answer questions put to him in a direct way. (Not that she thinks much of Bush's either)
I hate politicians. I think anyone who wants to be president should be disqualified from being president. I don't think either party is very different. They (rep. and dem.) are full of politicians who will tell you what they think you want to hear to get your vote. When it boils down to it, I don't think either party represents the majority of America. They just try to split us on issues that they end up riding the fence on anyway. And even when they do give their oppinion, they can't change anything because the majority of americans want status quo.
What I'm trying to say is we as a nation need to say we are tired of this crap! We need people that really represent us! Instead of trying to divide middle America into one of two parties, try to find what middle America wants. What I find middle America wants is a little bit liberal and a little bit conservative. We want a strong military. We a strong economy. We also want money to go to education. We want money to go to the environment.
When will we get a president who wants to represent the middle? Somebody who says we need to find a good middle ground?
This is the President that I am waiting for.

we need the old mayor of buffalo for prez. JIMMY GRIFFEN!
good guy, did some (allot)of drinking, ran the city great, hell he even kicked the crap out of some other mayor. (made the national news). most realistic man i have ever seen. he was himself, didnt pretend to be someone else or lie about shit.

It's been down hill ever since Bush has taken office.

I don't know if Bush is bad luck, cursed, or what.

But based on his record, since Bush has taken office, ANY CEO would be fired.

For Blakjak
As RealDeal already pointed out it's important because Kerry made his military service the center piece of his campaign.
Kerry doesn't want to address the issues or his 20 year history in the senate for 3 reasons.
1) If he brings up his voting record, he opens himself to attack for his constant flip-flopping on almost every issue. This goes to show he will say and do whatever he think will get him the most votes. The president shouldn't be an appeaser
2) If he discusses current issues and his plans to fix them, it opens him to attack because his voting record is the opposite of what little he has said his plans are for the country.
3) He doesn't want people looking at his senate record because to win he needs as many independent votes as possible. If these people reviewed his voting record, they would likely not vote for him.
I find it interesting he also never mentions his time as lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts. Of course there is a very good reason for this. Kerry's on the record as supporting Dukakis's furlough program. If you don't remember, the furlough program is a large part of what cost Dukakis the 1988 election. Dukakis was ahead in the race until the issue of his convict furlough program was brought up. This is where they allowed convicts out on the weekend. Well one of the convicts was in prison for murder and was let out for a weekend furlough. While he was out he raped one women and killed 2 people.
What it all comes down to is Kerry made this mess for himself, whats interesting is how he now can't even handle his own mistakes.
Look at the way he's dealt with the swiftvets.
Threatened lawsuits on TV stations which ran the commercials.
Requested bookstores not carry the book "Unfit for command"
Filed a lawsuit citing the ad's as illegal.
If what they said was untrue Kerry could easily prove them wrong by release his full service record, so far he has not done so even though Kerry has twice claimed on TV that he had.

My feeelings on this subject was pointed out far better than I ever could by
Maj. Gen. (ret.) Patrick Brady.

America has no kings or queens but we do have nobility – our nobility is called Veterans. That nobility is responsible for the bounty that is America but tragically their influence has faded in recent years and the values they died for are under attack. But this election year they are back in demand and some have said the veteran vote could decide this election.
John Kerry is seldom seen with out his band of brothers and constantly plays the” hero” card as a cornerstone of his bid for president, indeed, as the definition of who he is. Kerry defines patriotism as “keeping faith with those who wear the uniform of this country. He also brags that he “defended this country as a young man”. If Missouri is the show me state, Veterans are the show me voters – we are not much for words, deeds are our stock in trade. Lets look at Kerry’s deeds.

Before Kerry played his “hero” card, he played the atrocity card. When Kerry came back from Vietnam he joined with Jane Fonda and in 1971 denounced “those who wear the uniform” as terrorists-like rapists and assassins.
He made these charges under oath. Kerry says today that he would have framed some of what he said in 1971 differently. But he does not say he lied, which he did, nor does he apologize. How can one properly frame the denunciations of ones comrades in arms as modern day Genghis Khans?

He could have attacked the war without attacking the warrior. He could have questioned policy without supporting the communists’ claim that our soldiers were war criminals. He could have kept faith with those who wore the uniform with him. But he did not and he should be held accountable.

Kerry’s “hero” card is based on medals he received in Vietnam and is much celebrated, and unchallenged, by the mainstream media. I know many Medal of Honor recipients who have received less publicity for their medal than Kerry has for his. But medals don’t make a hero. It is how one uses medals that make a hero. Every honest soldier knows that medals are a function of circumstance, even happenstance, but most of all the support of ones fellow warriors.

I was awarded the Medal of Honor; but my fellow soldiers who supported me in the actions and took the time to write it up earned it. (##Note Kerry made the request himself for atleast 3 of his medals ##) I wear it for them, they own my medals. And every Medal of Honor recipient and hero I know believes as I do. Medals should be a sign of patriotism, a symbol of sacrifice, support and defense of a great nation. The highest form of patriotism is service to our youth; heroes also wear their medal for them to signal the importance of courage. Heroes do not use their medals for personal political gain. As I said they are not theirs to use.

As a political stunt, Senator Kerry threw his medals away , now it turns out they were not his medals but someones else's, an act very difficult for any veteran to understand. By that act he symbolically denounced his fellow veterans -- again. Does one keep faith with those who wear the uniform by throwing away their medals?

But perhaps most telling of his leadership qualities is his use of his Purple hearts to abandon his band of brothers, his command, on a technicality. Kerry may be the only person in history who took advantage of a Navy regulation that allowed him to leave his command after 4 months for 3 purple hearts none of which ever caused him to miss a day of duty. In my experience men fought to stay with their band of brothers, especially commanders. All the commanders I know would get out of a hospital bed to be with their men. Some one had to take his place; someone probably less experienced who would have to learn the ropes. That put his command more at risk than if he stayed. It is not hard to understand why those who stayed in combat for the full year are upset with Kerry.

And veterans today would be upset with Kerry’s support of Flag Burning his non-support of weapons systems and his 12 votes against military pay raises. But his use of veterans and mis use of his medals should bring into serious question his loyalty, integrity and character all of which equal leadership. He is not fit for command.


If thats not enough reason to explain why this is an important issue maybe this is.
Swift Vets Second Ad.

Sorry for the long post, but you asked.

I just want someone to tell me what good has Bush even done. I don't want to hear anything about 911 or anything of the such. He can't even get the guy who is responsible.

His campaign is War on Terror. We've always had Terror. What more is he going to be able to do. Nothing. He wants people to think that hes God and hes going to be able to stop terrorist attacks. Fat chance on that. He can't even support border control.

When is he going to deal with issues in our own country rather than going to another country to be a bully. When will he go to North Korea to take care of them. They are more of a threat to us than Sadam was. It was all about money and oil. N.K. does not have anything that Bush wants.

Bush is a dirty guy that needs to be put on trial with his brother Sadam.

Its all about how much more money they can take from the middle class to give to the rich class. Its the middle class thats keeping this country going. We pay for the welfare for the poor class and we pay taxes so that the rich can get a tax break..

Republicans can kiss it.

Wow! Spoken like a true Liberal.

I love when I hear someone say that we went to Iraq because of oil and money. Can you please explain your position on this to me with some facts?

No, no, no, I don't care if he has made it fair game and you want to pick it apart, the republicans are morons for sparring with him about the subject. You claim he avoids his senate record, which he does because frankly it's an embarassment, but provide no evidence as to why republicans don't bring it up, force it to the forefront, and use it against him. I believe this makes the republican platform weaker because they could be attacking something much more vulnerable and relevant than, as zillah so eloquently put it, "that was only 4 and a half months of his life." This debate over national security and who will protect the country in this 'new age of terror' is a load of bullshit only worsened by the fact that people firmly believe that 30 year old war records from a different era, culture, and geo-polotocal atmosphere are important. I don't give a rat's ass if kerry lied or was dishonorable, Bush is just as guilty. I'm tired of debating about why both candidates can blow me like a chinese whore but here is why I would not vote for either, after this I need to take a break:
1. Kerry is a lying sack of massachusetts monkey shit whose face is almost as shriveled and distorted as his plans for the national government. He avoids his embarrassing Senate record, but wisely throws everyone onto his 'less-worse' war record. He flip-flops more than a fish out of water, but has strangely got lungs to go with those gills and is wining in the polls?
2. Bush is a backward, legally retarded, political cowboy whose presidency has a been a real rodeo for more than a few. I know some of his policies have perplexed me more than once. His actions concerning the environment, education (which I will no longer argue about, due to the fact that I am supremely right ), gay marriage (even dick cheney is against him, who could blame him?!), stem cell research, and national security are just some of the problems. Interested in Bush and the environment- check out a segment run on PBS last night. Interested in Bush and education- email me and I'll fill you in on the inadequecies of No Child left behind, maybe with some commentary from actual teachers (there's a thought ). Interested in gay marriage- how about we keep our spiritual definitions of marriage out of the civil definiton and mind our own business. How is a gay couple's marriage going to affect me, anyone? Interested in stem cell research- how about the cure to AIDS, or cancer? Once again, I don't support either of these morons and their idiotic attempts to gratify me with their silly speeches and ambiguous plans, rather I'm merely trying to enlighten those among us who are still not sure who they should vote for.

Blah Thank god my birthday is 11/8/86 hehe. Shit I wrote a lot.

My standard preamble to post about politics.
People tend to take things personal, please don't.
Some of you agree with me other don't, which is fine. The real point of these discussions, is the discussion. Maybe something I say will change your opinion or maybe it won't, whats important is it gets people thinking about the subjects.
I highly doubt anyone will sway my opinions because I give a lot of thought to many of these subjects prior to drawing any conclusions. I'm not saying I'm the only one who does, but I do think most people base their opinions on 30 second sound-bytes which is unfortunate.

Hard drive I'll reply to both of your post.
You said "what good has Bush even done. I don't want to hear anything about 911 or anything of the such. He can't even get the guy who is responsible. "

You don't want to talk about 9-11?
Do you honestly not see just how important the subject is?
This was the largest attack on the US in our whole history, but your opinion is "yea but what has he done for me lately?"
For me, there is no larger or more important issue than the war or terror.
9-11 wasn't a fluke, it wasn't a one time thing.
The 9-11 commissions report should be a huge resounding wakeup call for america.
For the terroist 9-11 had a dual purpose, increase recognition for al-Qaeda and with the increased recognition, increased funding for continuing and larger attacks on the U.S. and our interest abroad.
Has their been another attack? no.
People can draw their own conclusions on why we haven't suffered another attack, for me the answer is easy, we took the fight to them and rightfully so.

On the boarder patrol subject I'm in complete aggrement with you.
This subject both parties have yet to come up with a working solution.
For me this is just another example of why Political Correctness is the largest problem with our government. Unlike many problems this is a simple one which has a simple solution. The real problem is no one wants to address it out of fear of alienating some voters.

I think your view on taxes is way off base. Here is a breakdown of who pays the tax bill for 2001 which is most recent year their are complete and accurate totals for.
The top 10% paid 68% of income taxes.
The bottom 50% make up only 3.97 percent of all income taxes paid
Everybody has heard the misleading stories about how the rich paid less taxes because of Bush's tax cut. The real reason why is becasue the wealthy took huge hits during the recent stock market downturn. They didn't make near as much money so they paid less in taxes.
It's pretty simple when you think about it.
Our tax system is a disaster either way you look at it.
For me, the best way would be a split between a flat tax and a usage tax paid in the form of a national sales tax. As a tax break for the poor I would exempt the necessities of life ( food , housing ) from the sales tax.


Last we come to this

What Druid, all that writing and no comment on my observations, I'm hurt hehehe I said I wouldnt post more but I can't help it. I am not sure of how effective the war on terror has been, but I'm sure that it has had some effect on terrorist groups. The Taliban got what was coming to them but the failure to capture Osama bin Laden and some of his top aides is a real windfall I think. Furthermore, we need to consider the price we have paid in terms of liberty and privacy. Although the Patriot Act plays a part in this, there is more to consider. There was an article in our paper last week detailing how screwed up airport security still is, including several incidents of weapons (not nail clippers but an actual gun and knives) being carried on board aircraft and an incredible hike in theft. And then there was Ashcroft's proposed Patriot Act II which would have basically voided the Bill of Rights...I can keep going. I really believe that someone is determined, smart, and daring enough they can pull off any attack they want. Casa and point- the recent events in Russia. I find it hard to believe that Russia, in light of 9/11, would neglect their airport security enough to let the same thing happen to them. And the planes came from the busy Moscow airport. Once again Druid, I respect your opinions and agree to disagree, and I like debating with you because you at least provide examples and facts to support you. Good discussion guys.