The changes look great. I took a few hours and ran around the map by myself on a local server:

a. Tank scrape E of G1. Very nicely sized. I love how you can easily scale the wall from the inside (over the L/R sides). The gap in the front railing is going to make it a prime sniping spot for overlooking G1. Two changes would be sweet. (1) The inside of the scrape is about 8-16 units too deep. (2) If the slope on the west side (outside of the scrape) could be flattened a bit, germans could use this position to also cover the swamp approach.

The russians definitely need to take and hold this position (it allows them overwatch of both G1 and G2).

b. Trench overlooking the stone bridge town (SE side) on the hilltop. Bit of a pain to climb out of except at the ends, yet it seems like you should be able to climb out the middle. The trees in town are a good addition (lowering the sniping factor from this location). I'd like to see the trench both deeper and shallower in places to make exits more obvious.

Maybe flatten out / lower the ground behind the trench (east side). It's so wide back there that I can see parking a tank there overlooking the village. I did get a tank hung up on the S end of the trench (oops).

c. Given the trench overlooking the town, the tank scrape E of G1, and the ability to park another tank between the scrape and the trench in hull-down positioning... I think G1/G2 are extremely vulnerable. In some ways that's very good, as long as the germans are strong on the north flank. Possible counter-balances if this proves to be true:

- Move the G1 pak gun to the south to (-23525 -19729 455). This would give it a better view
- Move G1 base farther west. Either just across the river below the G1 pak, or just west of the current G1 pak position.
- Move G2 NW to (-22693 -11957 517)

d1. (-23019 -18080 532) This is the spot N of the G1 pak gun. If this hilltop were resculpted just a hair, a tank could go hull-down in a way that it could overwatch G1 by looking SE.

d2. (-18684 -20461 696) If the middle of this little patch of terrain were lowered about 24-32 units it would provide germans a way to sneak up on the tank scrape to the E of G1 (making it a bit more bowl-shaped). Plus a tank could settle in there (although it's not an ideal spot) for ambush.

d3. (-14886 -19824 543) The swamp overlook (W end). This is nearly perfect. A way for infantry to sneak out of the swamp by going along the S fence, climbing the hill, and slipping around the top of the cliff. A single tree or bush to hide them from view as they come around the corner would be great (-15483 -19574 500). After that, they could sneak into the "pump pond" area and head downslope to G1.

d4. Ground color is still off along the base of the trees that run E-W on the north side of the swamp. I think the light gree pine trees could be stood off from the wall about another 32-48 units to break up that long straight wall.

d5. Love the new cattails / bullrushes.

d6. Trenchworks overlooking the swamp. Walls in front of the bunker openings could be higher (as much as 32 units). The trench wall on the right side of the 45mm gun is almost non-existent. That 45mm gunner is gonna be sniper-fodder for any germans in the village.

Maybe a tree on the hill N of the trenchworks (halfway towards town). Something to shield that area a little bit.

e1. 45mm gun overlooking the swamp. Could use another 20 degrees of angle to the right. Maybe shift the gun left about 32 units to allow more coverage to the right. (Left side coverage of the swamp and elevation +/- is perfect.)

e2. (-12295 -17812 303) The 2-rail fence on the S side of town. There's a single section missing. It would be great if that missing section could be widened to 2 or 3 open sections, making it possible to bring tanks through that spot.

e3. (-15479 -16802 441) Bunker exit SW of town. The rock on the right side (as you look SE) could be larger/taller. This would block the opening from being fired upon by the 45mm gun overlooking the swamp.

e4. (-16407 -13851 396) Road between stone bridge and town. Nice little rise/fall of the road there allowing some hull-down tank shooting into town (and at the stone bridge).

e5. Pak gun to the SSW of the stone bridge. Maybe hollow out a bowl-shaped depression here? The gun has excellent coverage and the sandbags help, it just still feels a little "hanging in the wind". I'm picturing a tank sitting next to the pak gun in the depression looking ENE to help with defense.

e6. Pak gun in the german spawn. Tough choices of where this may or may not be better placed. The opening in the haybales may need to be widened to match wider gun coverage.

- (-25799 -13119 188) Left side of spawn exit by the low stone wall (edge of the field). Which could give it a 160 degree field of view (from almost due N to almost due S).

- (-28245 -12750 188) Back left corner of spawn, looking SE with only 90 degrees of coverage. It would be able to defend the spawn area.

- Left in place. Needs about 10 more degrees of left movement and the left side haybales need to be shifted left as well.

- (-28417 -15260 157) Bit SW of where it is now, along the side of the building instead of in the front. It might look funny sitting in the middle of the road though. It would be ideal for covering both the NE approach and the E approach. Or maybe put it at the corner of the building which would accomplish the same feat.

f1. (-23768 -9729 474) Trenchworks on hill ridge between G spawn and G3. Nicely done. Deep enough to be useful, easy to get out of at obvious exits. Makes a decent tank scrap for looking NE as well.

Still some off-color ground to the NW of this spot.

f2. (-25252 -6820 438) NW corner of map (W of G3). Almost perfect little bowl-shaped corner. The E side of the bowl could be raised up a bit and the NW corner lowered slightly. As-is, it's a good position for laying down cover fire across the field in front of the german spawn (to the S).

f3. Love the rocks and bushes in the valley near there. The germans are going to have to watch that area for infantry. That whole river that runs from the stone bridge to the NW corner of the map is great.

f4. (-19438 -3329 637) NNE of G3, edge of map. There's a little hilltop here that is almost perfect for germans to watch east and north. It would be ideal if it was a little more bowl shaped and offered a touch more protection to the south. The height along the east edge is good and it's a strong defense against attacks from the east. Just a smidge of sclupting and I think it's a natural defense point.

f5. The road that runs N-S to the NW of G3 on the hilltop (more of a straight patch of dark brown then a road). If this stretch were lowered a touch and the W side raised a touch it would provide a defensive line for the G3 hill against attacks both W and E. Also a staging point for russians to start attacking SW towards the german spawn. There's a PzIII parked there in BAS.

f6. The pak gun at G3. The tall med green pine tree is a PITA (it blocks your view due to branches sticking into the pak gun's FOV). Maybe shove that pine tree about 16-32 units farther south. It could also use another 10-20 degrees of left coverage. And another 10-20 degrees of right coverage.

FYI - this pak gun can hit R3.

It would be useful if the ground behind the cliff edge were more depressed. It would provide a bit of cover from return fire while not requiring sandbags or haybales. Ideally, the whole area behind that pak gun could be depressed and bowl-shaped. That would provide the germans a defensible overlook to the SE.

I envision a tank parked to R of the pak gun looking towards the pillbox area. Or a portable MG setup there to cover the slope. I can also see a tank parked to the L of the pak gun with overwatch east. (I'm trying to strengthen the north flank to counterbalance the russian strength on the south flank.)

f7. (-19992 -9799 386) There's a tree to the S of G3 along the slope. If it was another 8-16 units away from the wall, it would be possible to sneak past it. Right now, you can't quite fit through the opening between the tree and the wall.

There's also a dark brown bush father upslope that could be stood out from the wall more to provide something to hide in.

f8. I know you said you won't move bases... but I still wonder if moving G3 to the NW so it's down closer to the river will help. Meh... we'll have to all see how it plays.

f9. The tank scrape SE of G3. Easy to get a tank in, slightly difficult to get a tank out. Also, since it's downslope from the german base, it would be good if it was another 24 units deeper. Not sure if it can be made larger like the scrap near G1 that you added. Maybe even ditch this and use the detail elsewhere.

g1. The pillbox defensive-works. I like those now (I think you changed them slightly). Some sections of the trench could stand to be 16-24 units deeper. Especially the sections on the NW side (since the G3 base is upslope). The trenches near the bunker entrance and behind the pillbox should probably also be deeper (32+ units more).

Regarding the vehicle issue. What if the stakes on the W side were moved up to surround the entire defensive works? Between the stakes and the barbwire, you could surround the entire installation, limiting approaches and preventing vehicles from driving over these trenches (and getting stuck).

Maybe a coil or two of barbwire on both sides of the pillbox, forcing you to go wider around it to sneak around the back (rather then just slipping along the side.

Bottom lip of the pillbox opening needs to be lower. The pak gun cuts into the wall at the lower depressions. The pillbox gun needs another 30 degrees of left and right traverse.

Not sure that the light inside the pillbox is required.

g2. Trench W of R3 (top of hill). Nice! Bit difficult to climb out of the N end of the trench. I'd shave away the mound on the R3 side of the trench. That would allow it to double as a trench / tank scrape looking SW. Depth is just about perfect along the entire length. Maybe make the E end of the trench slightly deeper (or raise the mound). The shadow at the N end is going to be a prime sniper vantage.

g3. (-15507 -4558 541) Pine tree and bush on S side of that pass with the trench. Both pieces of foliage should be stood out from the wall a bit, allowing infantry to sneak up that small ravine towards R3 with less chance of being seen by russians in the trench.

g4. (-13892 -3282 564) The house WNW upslope from R3. The crawlspace beneath it needs to be a bit deeper so that infantry can move around easier underneath there. It's an awesome ambush spot / sniper spot. It's just a bit too difficult to move around in there. Might have to open up the floor a bit more and put a slanted board in for access. The windows by the doors are perfect height to serve as murder holes.

The tree on the W side could be lowered a touch to make it more difficult for approaching enemies to see behind that house. The ground behind the house might be flattened and bowl'd a bit to provide more overwatch of the south approach.

The stable across the way is nicely placed. The pine tree downslope could be stood out from the wall a bit more.

g5. The boxes by R3. Move the bush at that corner of the wall outward and put the boxes closer to the wall. That would allow them to be used in defense against both upslope (NW) incursion or to ambush incursion from the south approach.

g6. (-15408 -8500 630) Small hill that overlooks the NW side of the town. It's a 3-way pass. S looks at the pillbox, NW looks towards the valley between R3 and G3. I'd like to see the NW pass turned into more of a depression leading into a shallow bowl shaped area that provides a tank scrape overlooking the town. So there would be a ridge along the side that faces the town and the ground would fall away to the NW.

Also provides a staging point for an assault into the town on that side.

g7. Bunker exit from the pillbox that faces the NW corner of town. There are bushes on both sides of the exit that I think should be stepped away from the wall a bit more. that would provide more cover for exiting the bunker and keep the bushes from passing through the walls in the tunnel.

Some of the top fence slats near where the jeep is parked could stand to be removed. Maybe the top slat of the section at the bush, and a top slat over by the gate. That gate can be jumped, but it's tricky.

h1. Lamp in the church. Too bright?

h2. Love the bathtub on the edge of town.

h3. Town is great. I see that you've removed a few top slats in fences here and there. Might be one or two more spots that could use that treatment (SW side).

h4. (-9687 -6768 287) N of town. This is that flat piece of ground that runs around to the south approach to R3. Anyway to undulate the ground there a bit? Give it at least some rise/fall as it goes around the corner? A broken fence? Maybe turn it into a small patch of field?

h5. (-8676 -7860 434) There's a level piece of ground here. on the W side of the road. If it was about 32 units higher, tanks could sit here and attack the russian fortifications on the other side of the "moat".

h6. N end of the road (burned out truck). A section of fence should be removed here (lower slat, or both slats) on both sides of the road so that infantry can sneak across the road at this point. Maybe move the two pine trees on the W side of the road away from the wall 32-64 units so that infantry can be shielded from view.

h7. N end of the "moat" river. Reshape the ground slightly so that you can sneak from the river up to the crater without being seen. (Lower the section by the fence, raise the hills to the S just a touch.) Even if you have to crouch to do it. Might need a bush or two along that fence for cover.

h8. Love the addition of the new footbridge on the S end of the "moat" area.

h9. I like the new 45mm gun position at the S end. It could use another 5 degrees of R traverse and about 15 of left traverse. It actually needs a few less degrees of depression (the barrel cuts into the wall). I think the boards above should be extended down to block sniper fire from the church tower (or allow the gun to hit the church tower).

I'll have to test this to see if it can hit bases (G2 is possible, I think...).

That building is easy enough to get in/out of. Bigger bushes at the W end of the footbridge would help infantry get to it.

The river bank is a bit angular and too up/down at the river crossing by the 45mm position. Could be disguised with foliage.

i1. The defensive trench at R1 is very nice. I think the hill behind R1 (S side) needs to fall away from the high ground a bit. The back wall of R1 is so deep into the terrain that I suspect it might be possible to use a russian jeep to climb up onto the roof of R1 (and thus down inside). Well, not quite... but I was able to get in by jumping from a russian jeep to a german PzIV to the top of the bunker.

Plus, it would be nice if a tank could go hull-down behind the bunker to guard against approaches from the north and east. (Or hull-down in a shallow bowl up on that hill.)

i2. (-2009 -17241 261) The S road. You've removed the west house, but left the 3 bushes. Those bushes might do better up around R1 (maybe leave one behind near the remaining house). I think you should put another "tilled field" texture in place of the old house. Something to provide visual interest beside that house.

i3. The S road. It's a nice stretch of road... just a little... flat. A bit of elevation tweaking along there (not much needed) would be nice looking.

i4. The river S of the trainyard. The west bank looks great, the east bank looks "flat" in comparison. One or two trees placed in the middle would obscure the sight lines. Maybe move bushes that are 3/4 into the wall so that they are only 1/4 into the wall in there.

i5. (6318 -11525 -30) E side of the trainyard. There's a full height grey fence surrounding a blue sided building. The yard that is enclosed is a deathtrap. I think the backside (E wall) should have a section knocked out if possible.

i6. 45mm gun in the crater at the N end of the trainyard. Wish it had 20 more degrees of left traverse.

j1. (-5256 -14085 512) I jumped onto the corrogated roof then tried to walk the edge of the wall. Got stuck. That whole wall is probably problematic on the inside.

j2. (-5262 -9841 462) The tank scrape on the N side of the road in the defensive works. It needs to be 64-96 units wider so that you can slot a tank in and turn it. I tried to put a PzIV in there from the side and got hung up (blowing the tank). You could even make that one 64 units longer. Another 32 units of depth wouldn't hurt either.

j3. Similar issue with the tank position on the S side of the road there. Deeper, wider, longer. It's a very exposed position. Plus, if it's wider, infantry can slip along side of the tank more easily. Better protection also makes it more worthwhile to position a tank there (since you have to back into position).

j4. Might be worth eliminating the northernmost 45mm gun position in the defensive works. Especially if it allows more trees, berms, foliage to allow infantry to slip the north wall over the river and into the north end of the defensive works.

j5. I think the pair of 45mm gun positions in the south end of the defensive line could also be converted to deep / wide / longer tank positions as well. Eliminate the wall with the opening on the W side of them, make them more like the "j2" tank scrape. That would give the russians (4) total tank scrapes rather then having to use the same one or two all the time.

j6. (-4975 -11426 439) The boxes here are stacked too close together. Easy to get hung up on the middle stack.

j7. Lights in the bunker tunnel at the russian spawn seem to be too bright. (Could be that it's not a full lighting render, but they seem brighter then in other bunker tunnels.)

j8. Satchel charge in the bunker tunnel at russian spawn. Maybe it should sit on the same crate as one of the lamps?

k1. (-4117 -14125 510) Pass at S end of defensive works (leading into russian spawn). Feels too open and exposed. Trees / foliage / rocks? Maybe make it not so flat?

k2. (-5939 -14018 485) There's a double-section of wall that has been inserted about 64 units behind the W wall. It should be moved about 64 units to the north so that you can slip around the S end of it.

k3. (-5553 -15205 491) Almost a perfect little tank scrape looking WNW, except for the little bump in the middle where the terrain is a little angular.

k4. I like the approach on/off the W end of the wooden bridge. Feels very natural. The fence is broken / missing in enough places to feel very infantry friendly as well.

k5. (-20253 -13823 247) Near G2. The stone wall (which is perfect height and well done) butts up against the zone wall with a bush or two at the corner. It really feels like you should be able to slip through that corner, but it's not quite wide enough. Maybe make the end pillar larger so it goes closer to the zone wall.

k6. A bush or two underneath the wooden bridge (russian defense line). I've seen a few players that like to hide underneat there and spring out to surprise unsuspecting tanks. It might also help to hide the flatness of the W side of the river at that spot. But if it was a choice between foliage underneath that bridge or farther N where it could cover flanking infantry... I'd chose farther north (to allow german infantry to sneak).

k7. (-8818 -14710 278) A big fat piece of pass-through foliage here would be great. That way, it will be somewhat of a surprise when the german armor column comes rolling up the river from the swamp area and turns that corner. Even if the defensive line is manned, germans could attempt an armor break through along the river at the S end, bypassing the defensive line. But it will be difficult if the russians can see them coming from over at the woodend bridge.

...

Base analysis:

G1 - Depends on who controls the swamp and the hill to the S of the stone bridge. If the germans do not control that flank, both G1 and G2 can be shelled easily. Reinforcement is somewhat easy, but easier if the base was on the german side of that river (-22647 -19859 170).

The tank scrape on the hill to the S of the stone bridge is key. It needs to be bi-directional so that both sides can use it effectively. We may even want to turn that tank scrape around 180 degrees and make it face east over the swamp. That would strengthen the ability of germans to hold the S flank.

G2 - Troublesome. If the hill on the E side was higher and the base were lower, it would be protected from the pillbox 45mm. Or shifting it 50m west to the edge of the wheatfield. Or put a house on the east side of it so that you can't hit the base with the pillbox 45mm. Or raise the E side, lower the base, and put a fence on the E side.

Easily reinforced but it's going to be bloody (unless the pak gun near it is well protected).

G3 - Very vulnerable due to being on an exposed hilltop. It's a long way from the spawn with lots of cover around it that infantry can use to sneak in and plant. It's possible that the hill could be resculpted to protect it from the pillbox 45mm. (Lower the base, make the hill steeper and higher on the side facing the 45mm gun.) Large boulders or mounds of rubble could also be used to block 45mm gunfire.

Alternately, I suspect it will need to be shifted 50-100m to the NW. Either halfway to the river or down by the river.

It might be defendable if the germans have enough tank scrapes / overwatch positions along the east and south approaches. It is "high ground" with a long distance view. This hilltop needs to be easily defended against direct attack (forcing russians to either sneak up the hillside on foot or sweep up the river and flank from behind).

R1 - I think this is going to be one of the most difficult for the germans. Unless trees are put in to obscure sight lines between R1 and R2, germans will have a difficult time getting tanks to R1 without being cut up by russians in the defensive line. Strong possibility that I can figure out a way to shell this from the hills near G1 (or even G3) due to the altitude of the base.

R2 - Moderately difficult. Due to being in town, planting will be easy. Shelling it is also easy (from the swamp or from the NW side of town). Could be a heavily contested location. The only other alternative location would be at the N end of the defensive works near the wooden bridge.

R3 - Probably the easiest of the 3 russian bases to crack. The new defensive positions will help quite a bit, but it's still a big bottleneck on the south approach. Defusing a bomb is going to be very difficult. Wish there was another back passage to 3 or that the southern approach was wider. I expect this base to rarely survive a round.


(sigh) I forgot to change the title to "beta 2" on the end... guess I need to bow and scrape and beg a moderator to fix that mistake!

/beg
/grovel

And how long did it take you to type this up??

Holy shit Bob, when I have enough time, Im gonna have to read all that. If I started now, I would miss the game.....Kickoff in 71 mins.

Thanks, Bob, for all the indepth reviews. I can do some of them. I am actually at the point of removing stuff to get compiles. Every brush or mesh I add, something has to come out somewhere else, and I don't have too much to remove (on a scale to make a difference). We are working on a wheatfield model and if it comes out Ok, we can remove the mesh work in that field and that will give me a lot more to work with.

I don't want to move any bases. They are all fairly even in time/distance per team/per spawn etc. Russian 3 I will again look at another back route that won't impact FPS. Many of your notes overall have been considered and put on hold due to resources. I will seriously consider many and implent a few here and there as I can. I really appreciate the input, it is solid, well thought out and a fresh perspective.

Overall, I think this will be the best looking and playing map I've done... well, at least in CNQ. CTF is decent, and BAS is getting there.

A few hours. I typed as I went through the map. Right now, I have my LAN server up and running with 2 copies of CoD to see whether I can hit bunkers with 45mm/pak guns. (The answer is "you bet!").

...

Pak gun by G2 - Can hit R3
- Take 3-5 degrees of leftward motion off of the pak gun. Basically, it shouldn't be able to swing left into the treeline by G2. It still needs to be able to hit all of the trenchworks at the pillbox, so be gentle on scaling this back. The spot for hitting R3 is a ways into the treeline (easy to see on the compass).
- Alternately, raise the hill at (-15900 -8205 538) to be about 256 units taller. The shell seems to pass by around 4-5m off of the hilltop.
- Or lower the pak gun's altitude a meter or two (unlikely to fix issue).

Pak gun by G2 - can hit R1
- This was a darn easy shot. Might be fixable by removing 1 degree of elevation from the pak gun.
- Alternately, the hill on the ESE side of the stone bridge area needs to be made higher so the pak gun can't hit over top of it.
- The pak gun still needs to be able to drop shells into that trench position up there, so I wouldn't reduce elevation on the G2 pak gun.
- Could also be fixed by lowering the height of the hill that R1 is on.

Pak gun by G2 - can hit R2
- The shells pass by the church on the N side and just barely touch R2
- Could move the R2 base about 3 meters to the south to fix it
- Could move the G2 pak gun 1 meter to the south

Pak gun by G1 - can hit R2
- Shave some elevation off of what this pak gun can hit. Not much more then 1-2 degrees would be enough.
- Moving the pak gun 20m southward would help
- Or raise the hilltop on the SE side of town enough so that the shells don't clear that ridge.

Pak gun by G1 - can hit R1
- Shave a degree or two of elevation off this pak gun.
- Make sure it can still hit the trench on SE of stone bridge and the hill top S of the stone bridge
- Or lower R1 as suggested (and raise the hill to the W of R1)

Pak gun by G3 - will be able to hit R2 and probably R1
- It's not an easy shot. Moving the R2 base to the south to shield it with the church might help.

Pak gun by G3 - can hit R3
- R3 ridge line may need to be raised
- R3 base may need to be shoved NNW with the hill being steeper coming down from the house to the west
- Don't want to limit the elevation of this gun
- Move the pak gun north to (-19317 -5801 658) which is slightly lower in elevation, but this makes the R2 problem worse
- Best is probably to lower the altitude of this gun by around 64 units. Carve the hillside so that it's in a shallow depression. Make sure not to put a wall right behind the pak gun though (splash damage kill would be too easy). Maybe a shallow defile running back up the slope into the G3 defensive positions.
- Germans really need this gun to command the entire north half of the map. From being able to hit targets down on the road leading to the stone bridge to also stopping attacks along the north flank.

R2 45mm - possibly will hit G1 after changes
- Maybe... if it's given more left traverse (needed) and elevation is not reduced, it's a possibility.
- Elevation can be reduced as long as the gunner is not vulnerable to sniper fire from the church.

R2 45mm - Can hit G2
- by shooting just over the S part of the church roof
- Same issue as hitting G1 with regards to reducing elevation
- Protection of G2 from the pillbox 45mm might fix this issue too

R2 45mm - Can hit G3
- Shots just over the right side of the R2 base
- Less elevation would fix
- So would protecting G3 from the pillbox 45mm

R1 45mm (S flank) - just misses G1
- The shell goes just overtop of G1, so the hill between this gun and G1 may need to be 64 units taller
- Or the 45mm needs to be about 64 units lower in altitude

R1 45mm (S flank) - can hit G2
- Twas an easy shot
- The hill between these two spots may need to be higher
- Or the 45mm needs to be lowered 64 units (or both solutions)
- Or, when fixing G2 to be protected from the pillbox 45mm, it may also fix this issue

R1 45mm (S flank) - can/can't hit G3?
- Not sure. When given more traverse to the right (which is needed), it may be able to start hitting G3 (unless G3 is moved NW)
- Protecting G3 from the pillbox may also fix this issue

Pillbox 45mm - can hit all 3 bases (or will)
- Easiest fix for G1, move a house by the stone bridge to block or tuck G1 more to the S behind the hill.
- Easiest fix for G2 (discussed earlier)
- Fix for G3 (discussed earlier as well)


...

I understand the resource issue. It's all trade-offs at this point. And I have yet to see it in "play" with the new changes. I haven't gone looking at CTF or CNQ yet, just BAS.

As always, good luck with the compiles. It's a very nice map.

Quick fixes discussed before releasing beta2 included a taller pitch on the lower church roof, that eliminates R2 pak from hitting G2. I can't seem to get the elevation limiter to work well on that pak to eliminate it hitting G3. For BAS, I will remove the forward bunker pak 45. Too much trouble to neuter it otherwise. The south trench 45 can be lowered. Raising hills all around causes issues. Other option is to add a low weapon clip inside the treelines...that will solve a lot of issues and will seem visually acceptable vs shells blowing up in the 'sky'.

G3 pak is a vital gun as you note. Your suggestion to lower it is a good option. I think I can spare the extra verts to sculpt a nice depression an maybe pile some small rock models around the front of it.

On the house above R3... I realized that I need to make the terrain under the floor a seperate mesh and lower the covered verts...then it should allow full prone movement. Actually, lay outside looking through the holes toward G3...sniper dream hole.

R1: I can drop that terrain and base enough to clear up German pak danger. Same solution to install weapon clips of 64+ units in the treelines.

Forward trench/wire: resources. It will take a lot of mesh or brushwork to close that all off but I can try to narrow down the approaches as I finalize other work first. In the end, I think players need to learn it is risky to take vehicles over the open trenches.

Forward trench wire - wasn't sure if you could just upgroot the stuff along the river bank to the west and put it up around the trenchworks or not. (I know just enough mapping to be dangerous to myself and others.)

A low weapon clip on the treelines is a very good solution. None of the firing solutions were outside the treeline (above the treeline) so it will seem very natural.

Removal of the pillbox 45mm during BAS is probably going to be the best solution. Plus I think it will give germans a better chance at being on an even footing. Or at least a chance to not get slaughtered by that 45mm while they try to defend G2 and G3. (It's extremely difficult to plant shells there to kill that gunner.) I don't think it's going to be an issue with russians only having (3) 45mm to the german's (4) pak guns.

I forgot to check firing solutions on the german spawn pak. I don't think it can hit anything, but I'll check again if you move it.

FYI, when I check firing solutions it's by running a LAN server. One system runs in server mode and I connect to it using my game machine. That gives me two screens side by side. I start up a BAS round, put one player on each side. The one screen I use a a forward observer while I try and target the base with the 2nd PC. I haven't tried running 2 copies of CoD on the same machine in window mode... (hmm...)

The forward observer screen makes it fast-n-easy to figure out whether I'm on the right compass heading and then I can fine it down with elevation changes. With a 1600x1200 display, you can see the increments of the crosshair as it bumps up/down or left/right.

On the Barbarossa map, I use a secondary fire key on my keyboard rather then the left mouse button. That lets me position the crosshair with the mouse, then I can just press and hold a key on the keyboard. Which means less chance of wandering off target if my mouse hand gets tired.

The other key factor that determines whether a target can be shelled from a distance is muzzle velocity. Lower velocity weapons require a higher angle of elevation in order to reach the target. Which means they can pass over taller obstacles then a higher velocity weapon. The mortar is the most extreme example of this.

A good example of this is the PzIV vs PzIII on Barbarossa. When shelling R3 from the german spawn, the PzIII's higher muzzle velocity requires a different (lower) cannon elevation then the PzIV. This also makes it trickier to aim because every degree of elevation error results in a larger over/under range error. (Meaning that with a flatter tragectory, being 1 degree too high will mean that you overshoot the target point by a larger margin.)

Slyk posted the following in the Barb strategy thread:

German pak gun is 75mm. Russian is 45mm. Their damage factors are scaled accordingly. The BT7 and Russian AT share the same cannon. The KV is a 75mm but shorter, lower velocity than the German pak40/75mm so the German AT gun gets higher velocity and range. The short barrel 75 on the PzIV is slightly less velocity than the KVs 75. The PzIII 50mm gun is just better than the Russian 45/BT7 guns.

So the PzIV has the lowest velocity of the bunch if I read Slyk's post correctly. This gives a very "tall" / "curved" shell arc trajectory which requires less precise aiming points. (The KV1 is also moderately forgiving of elevation errors.)

Ah, math and physics... although this probably doesn't qualify as real-world application of either.

But it's a damn close application. Between what we could do with weapon settings, and gameplay balance, we hit a good mix I think. We used some solid math in working out equations based on muzzle velocities and barrel lengths etc. and then translated that to weapon file stats. The best thing about it is that we didn't take the cookie-cutter approach GMI did. Each of our weapons is unique in as many ways as possible. Just a lot more learning curves to master!

Personally I like the open access to the trench front> good for storming into to clear out snipers/campers. And that is my puny contribution to the intricately finesse thread of you 2 giants.

THREAD TITLE: SHOULD SAY "....BETA 2". Can an admin edit that? I swear that's what I typed when I posted it.

As for the open trench front, I'm in your camp, Hellfighter. Just a bit of wire to make it less of a straight shot. One of my favorite things on this map is sneaking in there, working up to just under the gun, cooking off a 'nade and depositing it via the gun slit at the feet of the gunner. Now that is a good boom! Very satisfying.

I agree that there should be ways to storm those trenches from the front. I was picturing something like this around the circumference of the trenches:

+------+...+------+....+------+

+ (posts)
- (wire)
. (space)

Prevents vehicles from entry, infantry can easily enter, the gaps in the wire are somewhat obvious, and it would give a bit of visual definition to the area covered by those trenches. And I also love the idea of sneaking up on the 45mm gunner in that bunker during CNQ.

...

For some reason, at least on 1600x1200 display, the trench wire between the posts down by the river are almost invisible. The posts are evenly spaced, but not all of them have wire strung between (making it harder to guess unless you get right up on it and look closely). Which I find personally annoying when I'm taking vehicles through that section. I think it's the visibility issue that gets under my skin (leading me to wanting them closer up by the trench area instead of down by the river).

Damn Bob, This is awsome, you should be a general. I'll follow you into combat. Hooya

Thanks for the Info..

Alright, Bob. You win the battle of the wire. Moved it 'up' the slope and trying some new wire textures and methods, maybe go with the spiraled cylinders for more visual impact. I will carefully try to expand the ring of obstacles but it will depend on the max_index cap which is very close. Actually, I will possibly get in the habit of sending you a couple copies of the pre-final for review...???

That trench system is fabulous. In a recent game I used it to pick off oncoming Germans from the village with great effect at far range. Upon my death, 2 jerries hid themselves around/in the trenches and mauled me time after time as I tried to re-enter the works from spawning. Thereupon I eventually had to go in very sneakily and check each trench dugout to flush out the well hidden foe. A very nice little battle within a battle.

Okie dokey!

If you want to PM me a link, I'll be sure to do the pak/45mm gun check. I'll even check on the KV1/PzIV spawn points to see if they can touch bases.

Once I get a solid compile tonight, I'll pm you the DL link. Not so concerned about the tanks shelling bases, that will be a very tough job to eliminate all those angles. The paks are one thing I would like to reduce in effectiveness though...just always seemed to cheap. Again, I suffer due to my 'chaos' design approach...eh...makes em more interesting, right?

Updated base / map analysis.

G1 - moderate

As stated before, the hilltop SE of the stone bridge is key to the defense / assault on G1 (and somewhat for G2). If the germans hold this hilltop, G1 will be difficult to assault. If russians control it, the base will fall quickly but the russians will have to move closer to G1 to prevent defusal teams. Reinforcments by germans is moderately easy.

G1 defense, probably 2 players. One on the pak gun and another to hold the ridge to the east of G1. If there's a 3rd, they'll probably assist on the hilltop where the tank scrape is.

G2 - medium

Easily shelled and any defensive troops are exposed. Germans can setup shop in the buildings around the stone bridge and it's a short run from the german spawn to G2. It might be good to allow 1-2 germans to spawn in the houses by G2. Or a spawn in the house to the W of the G2 pak gun.

OTOH, defusal teams have a straight shot out of the german spawn to rush up the road to G2. No rivers / slopes / broken ground to cross (which slows down jeeps).

G2 defense will probably require 1-3 players. One on the pak gun, one closer to the base on the N side, and a 3rd hiding in the houses.

G3 - weakest

Easily shelled from a long distance due to the hilltop position. Infantry have easy approach due to all of the trees around the base. It's also easily flanked. There's no good place for infantry to hole up at. It has a very wide frontage that needs to be guarded to keep russians from approaching.

Minimal defense for G3 will require 3-4 players. One on the pak gun, one looking SE towards the pillbox, one to watch the W approach. The 4th could possibly assist on the N flank.

A bunker south of G3 overlooking the SE might help. (Similar to the small bunkers used in Barbarossa such as the one that is near G1 and faces the middle german pak gun). It would need to face SE to cover any approach from the pillbox side. A small trench line S of the pak gun would assist as well (running from the pak gun to the E side of the G3 bunker along the ridge edge). Part of the trench would need to be covered to allow troops to shelter from arty strikes.

R1 - strong

The only way to get tanks here is to pass near the town. As a result, german advance is vulnerable to russians pouring out of the spawn area. Infantry, OTOH, can easily pass through the tunnel and infiltrate the houses by R1.

Defense of R1 can probably be handled by 1-3 players. One player in the trenches or in a tank by R1. Second player to keep the houses clear. A third player could watch the swamp approach and man the 45mm gun.

R2 - moderate

Similar issues as G2. Easy for infantry to approach. More difficult to shell due to being behind the church and being covered by other buildings on other approaches. There are a LOT of approaches to R2. A very wide front with lots of obscured sight lines.

Defense of R2 is going to require 4+ players. One on the 45mm gun. One in the church tower. And two more to watch the various flanks and keep the houses clear.

R3 - weak

Defending R3 is actually rather easy. The hard part is getting reinforcements there if the enemy controls the southeast approach. As long as the russians hold the west end of the area (the ridgetop), the germans will find it difficult to assault into this area. The situation is going to be similar to an assault on R1 in the original Barbarossa map.

Defense can be done by 2+ players. One at the top of the ridge looking W. The other to make sure nothing sneaks in from the south approach. A third player could float between the two spots, spending most of their time in the house / stable.

Other issues:

a) Tank hiding

Russians have the advantage. They have the entire rail depot area at their disposal. Easy enough to hide tanks back there where germans won't think to look. In addition, teammates probably won't go wandering back there looking for tanks to steal.

German hiding spot is the water pump river to the SE of G1. Or possibly behind a building in the german spawn. German thieves may decide to utilize the rail depot as well.

b) All roads lead to Rome

The main town at R2 is going to become a heavy battleground. All tank approaches lead past here. Action fanatics will get their fill in this location. Battles will probably mostly occur along the area from R2 to G2. Any assault up the middle road will have to deal with withering ambushes from both sides due to all of the houses and the pillbox area.

Thanks for the synopsis, Bob. Good job and some fine points made, especially about defense works at G3. IF I can free up resources (Bob knows the current mantra), I can do what you suggest and a bit more. For those 'out of the loop', I have made the biggest map possible within the confines of the game engine when you count all the brushwork and meshwork... Literally adding another wall or pile of logs will crash the compile.

I really am thrilled with the 'Road to Rome' aspect of the map as it comes out in both BAS and CNQ. We ran 12 guys last night on the latest compile in CNQ and it was bloody gorgeous fighting all along the map. The village, mainly the church is key to both gametypes. As for BAS, I think it is vital that both teams dedicate to defense of their middle, #2 bases. You almost have to prepare for firetruck runs to your #1 and #3s when needed because loss of your #2 is almost certain catastrophe.

Along the same lines, talking about 'D'. It is often times advisable that if you are spawned in your teams #3 base, to stay IN the base. One man who can grab rockets and climb to the turret section can do some damage for awhile against enemy tanks and wreck havoc on jeep/foot troops. This has proven very effective at holding R3 in beta play.

More work to do over the next couple days. I hope for a Friday/Saturday release. I have the wheat models I was waiting on so I need to implement them and test their impact. IF they work, that gives me the resources to do more sculpting of terrain and cover.

well, his messages are only slightly longer than Druid's though....



looking forward to playing the new map.



Lead

We appreciate the efforts, Slyk.

I feel bad for the fellow... he got 3 massive missives from me last night in PMs that ya'll didn't see. It's a lot of massive give/take at this point on any structural additions or additional trees & rocks. Most of the fine tuning involves moving a tree / bush slightly, or bending the terrain mesh slightly to smooth out something lumpy. Fixing the shelling of bases using the stationary guns is proving tricky. Some have been fixed, some shots are still possible. Slyk is still adjusting weapon clips in the key treelines.

If there were oodles of brushes to spare, I'd be interested in closing off the trainyard during BAS gameplay. Unfortunately, it's a wide open area behind the russian spawn hill, which would be very difficult to close off. Still, any players who run around in the trainyard really aren't helping either side to win during a BAS round.

Originally, I think the BAS gameplay was favoring the russians based on what I could imagine in the Feb 5th release. Now that the pillbox 45mm gun is removed during BAS, the middle of the map is more of an even contest.

I think infantry now has a chance to survive encounters with tanks in nearly all areas of the map. There are still a few spots where infantry will end up as roadkill, but most spots have cover within sprinting distance. Taking tanks up the middle is likely to be a losing proposition, tanks will probably want to utilize the flank approaches.

Lots of sniper vantage points on the map. I may take time at lunch today to think about possible sniper vantage points.

There are some naked lanes, like going into R3. I'll clump that up a bit with a couple rocks/bushes. Trying to keep a balance between performance, gameplay, and realistic looks takes a lot on big maps. Some naked zones you just have to assume the Russians would have cleared, while in others, more cover will trash framerates. I'm lousy at pre-planning my maps...and I like it that way... but it does create these challenges of tweaking it just right or maximizing framerates. Woe is me...but I am enjoying this one.

Sniper roosts (not an exhaustive list by any means):

A1. Town church tower.

This is the one that almost everyone will think of. Both teams can hold this position to their advantage. Covers all compass points. There's been some foliage added to reduce the effectiveness of this vantage point. Such as the trees / rocks on the S side of town, allowing infantry to slip out of the swamp and into town.

Any gunners on the russian 45mm overlooking the swamp are sniper-fodder from this location. Also tough to exit the bunker entrances behind that gun if german snipers are in the church tower.

There should be a few more slats removed on the W side of the tower.

A2. North end of the "moat" road.

Not really a great sniper spot, but you can cause a little havoc for either side. Or at least pick off snipers in the church tower from an unexpected direction.

G1. Bunker exit SW of town or pine tree in corner.

There are rocks/trees that you can lay down behind to get a position on any church tower snipers and the SW side of town. You may find it better to go to the pine tree a bit south of there to snipe at the tower. You can also attack the R1 swamp 45mm gun position, but that gunner can return fire.

G2. G1 pak gun hilltop

German snipers holed up on this hill will be able to cover the G1 area and pick off snipers on the hill to the east. It's not a great spot but it is a ridgeline with moderate advantage.

A bush on the S side of the pak gun would provide more cover for infantry as they attempt to slip along the south fence and down into the G1 river area.

G3. The G3 base hill.

A commanding view of the pillbox trenches and the exit from the R3 base area. Lots of trees, lots of flat spots. Lots of ways to escape retribution.

G4. The russian spawn hill

Allows you to look down into the trainyard from multiple vantage points.

R1. Trench on SE hill by stone bridge.

A natural spot to snipe G1 / G2 / G2 pak / stone bridge area. Vulnerable to return fire from the G2 pak gunner. A closely related spot is the tank scrape on the hill nearby. Snipers can easily retreat into the bunker tunnel, or slip across the hill into the thick foliage around the water pump. So I suspect germans will have a difficult time keeping russian snipers off of this hill.

R2. Trench at NE end of field by german spawn.

A brave russian can sit here and plonk shots down into the german spawn. The sniping is best done by not being in the trenches (rather lay on the NE side). This allows you to fade away to the NE into the river area with lots of cover (and multiple escape paths).

R3. Trench on hilltop W of R3 (or the house W of R3)

Great view of the G3 hilltop. A few places to hide up here.

R4. Trenchworks by russian spawn.

Lots of hiding spots with a pretty clear view of the entire town.

Lately I've been CTF'ng on a Barb 2 server almost entirely as a sniper. And as I imagined, this map is turning out to be superb sniper terrain.

I find the moat road is a superb German sniper spot for slaughtering ruskiz in the back as they pass by into the center village, or even go over the bridge to peel off to the side lane in a jeep. I took a very heavy toll on the enemy repeatedly while in this position. The ideal spot is below the elevated road crest at hedge just by the 'moat' bridge on the German side of the elevation.... but you must remain below the crest or barely peeking above it... in this case you can pick of rusky snipers and strollers in the trenchworks on the opposite side. Take the shots at long range always since upon respawn they'll have a very hard time figuring out your location from the cam view as they died. After half a dozen kills fall back to the very end of the moat road to pick off someone that might be searching for you with revenge on mind!

The best Rusky sniper spot I found again taking a stunning toll on the enemy is at the south end of the trenchworks- but not in them.... like a tank's hull down position on a hill, try this out as a sniper so to speak. But from this spot you can pick of a jeep driver, force his passengers to bail out then pick them off at very long range... you can also see germand running into the church from which you can deduce they are going into the tower...blam- so ends their tower adventure before they start aiming there.... I've even shot half track divers through driver slits as they enter the village. All because these drivers are moving in a straight enough line toward your spot for you to take careful aim. The spot is great for assisting your side in close quarter fights the church area of the village. If you take this spot pickup a rocket laucher when you spawn.... the only jerries likely to kill you here will be those speeding through your sniper killzone exiting the village in a vehicle and they are likely speeding to run you over.

A follow up forward spot to this, once you see the enemy in defensive/camping mode, is on the opposite side of the village next to the hill on your left.... either expose yourself a bit to pick off jerries appearing on the hill crest as they leave their base, or stay on the blind side of the hill and pick off jerries passing through the center village in their backs.

Best rusky spot # 2 is behind [not in]the pillbox in the gun emplacement area overlooking the German base.

In each of these cases, figure out a place to fall back on and stay alive once you've stirred up the hornet's nest enough to draw considerable enemy attention intent on vapourising you. In this situation the end of 'Saving Private Ryan' comes to mind when the paras have their fall back spots in their 'Alamo' with the shout "Displace!!!" ie, 'get the hell out of here!'

"Final" is done. Waiting for file posting and mirrors. Sometime today.