Just a question for admins. Are you finding that the Smolensk map is properly balanced? I wish there was a stat to see what the overall score was (base kills) between German versus Russian, and actuall victories (all three bases blown by one team). I assume admins have access to such a stat, and hoping they'll share it.

I haven't played that much, but I'd guess if there was a "balance" issue, it would be the Germans that have the advantage. Not sure if others would agree. I just find the Russian spawn to be so far from their bases, and 2 is so exposed, 1 has that backway in for the Germans through the tunnels, and well, you can almost forget about 3!!!

The big German weakness as I see it is how easy it can be to get to their main spawn and steal their tanks and make life miserable there for them, and how hard it is for them to come back and retake it since it is so open. Still, I think life is easier for them to defend bases, especially when falling back in a hurry.

I also get the impression draws are going to be less than Barbarossa. With the map so wide open and 3 ways to most places, plus spawn points that aren't that close to any base, throwing up a wall of defence will be difficult.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. I LOVE this new map! But just wondering if people are monitoring the balance issue, or has this already been tested and is this a FINAL version with no more tweaks?

MoD

From the rounds that I have played, I haven't really noticed a balance issue. There are plenty of jeeps near the Russian spawn, so you can get to R1 and R2 in about 8 seconds - there is no excuse for not trying to defuse. R3 takes about 13 seconds to get to via Jeep.

The problem, as you suggested, is that there are so many routes to get to the opposing bases that bases will be easily destroyed in a matter of minutes. The key to Smolensk is defence. If people stay back and watch their own bases, they could eliminate the oncoming offensive, and then follow with their own counteroffensive. Unfortunately, no one ever wants to play such a role at the beginning of a round.

A little bit of strategy, and smart thinking, is required to win. (Imagine that!)

Good topic. Initially, I thought there may be balance issues, but we played the life out of the map in alpha/beta testing and really it's a 52-48% kind of thing at worst. Two keys: DEFENSE by smart players at vital locations at the right times and STRATEGIC OFFENSE...which is a funny phrase. Let's take these one at a time.

DEFENSE: The map favors the defender in every gametype but that does not guarantee the defenders will win, even with active offensive actions. Bob has analyzed the map hard and you should read up on his thesis. The key to defense is knowing the map foremost. Next is using the knowledge to plot your defensive strengths and weaknesses. The swamp is a virtual highway for unwanted surprises. Both teams need to control that avenue to guard their southern flanks. A constant watch and reinforcement plan is called for. The north flanks are the same. Positioned armor, infantry with rockets, pak guns in action. Use terrain to your advantage when possible. The north is hardest for both teams to guard and usually the easiest to be pushed out of. Defense of the middle #2 bases to me, is the easiest. If there is active/vocal defense on the flanks, middle defenders should always be aware of incoming attackers. The Russians should never loose their #2. Too much cover to ambush attackers, fairly close spawn, and overlooking high ground. Loss of #2 is due to poor defense and no support. The Germans have a little tougher time, but usually fall victim to being flanked and seldom loose their #2 to straight up the gut attacks. Nor should they... that pak and one tank should shut down the middle route every time. Add a foot troop or two in the houses by the bridge and forget about coming that way.

STRATEGIC OFFENSE: I think in general you plan according to numbers. You need to know how many bodies you've got and dedicate some to defensive roles. After that, you trust the defense to hold out while you strike in force at one enemy base at a time. A coordinated team effort with a balance of armor and infantry can steamroll an opponent in under 10 minutes. Sporatic local actions might do some damage but tends to only cause a lot of "oh my god my pants are on fire" moments that are quickly brought under control. Dedicate some defenders. Position armor or infantry/rockets at choke points to slow down or bleed out an attack. Pick a route and go in force. Hit the enemy hard, roll them up, blow that base top, plant the bomb and cover it. By doing this you not only panic the defenders, you force them often times either into watering down their attack by diverting to counter-attack that usually results in you chewing them up piecemeal as they come at you in 1s and 2s; or they ignore you and press forward while you systematically wipe their bases from the map, mangling their spawn exits on the way and generally giving them all a bad attitude.

It is about teamwork and self-sacrifice. Glory pigs out for high scores at any cost are worthless by most standards. Someone needs to stay behind, man a pak gun, horde rockets, snipe-camp and generally throw themselves under the tank treads now and then to slow down the enemy. You get some fanatical defenders who go back spawn after spawn like a starved savage looking at Heide Klum tied to a pair of palm trees, and you'll win more than you loose.

2 problems with map.... the pak gun by the cat tails is useless! wall needs to be alot lower, second is the russians need a indentation on the middle road comming into the main town to defend it wwith a kv1 or such, otherwise defending russians is hard. pack gun would also work.great map, made it harder to spawnkill the germans. rear pack sux! (from spawnkille POV)
can that pack by the tunnel to R1 be fixed! other wise its useless!!!

Map is final. No changes to come. There are several things I would change if I could. I am about 99% done with the CoD franchise and even if tools for CoD2 came out today that included vehicles, I'd be hard pressed to convert the map. The only hope for me to do more UO work is to have 'Red Orchestra' fall on its face, which I really doubt will happen. AHz is moving forward to that game asap.

The swamp pak, by the way wouldn't depress far enough to cover much more with a lower log in front of it. I don't know if they admins what to go in and find it and make a server-side mod to raise the model up 8 units or so. That is one option. Sorry to have some bugs in there but in some cases I did look at different aspects and went with the theory that you need to cope with the map as is. The swamp pack will get a lot of critics due to the ability to splash damage the gunner, etc. but at least it is there to cover the top of the ridge...without it you would be worse off. Again, up to the admins if they want to write a mod to alter the position of the gun.

Hey Slyk, I found this and I wonder if it was suposed to be there? a hole in your smolensk.
its between the stone bridge and the 3 bunkers.. EAST side of the river. (russian side)

Nope. Victim of map size. Missed it as it cropped up after beta2, I think. One of three terrain issues. There are atleast 10 things I would change, half of which anyone other than me wouldn't catch.

thats really not cool, release a map but not fix the bugs...

[quote name='Slyk' date='02/20/06 12:49pm' post='95496'] Good topic. Initially, I thought there may be balance issues, but we played the life out of the map in alpha/beta testing and really it's a 52-48% kind of thing at worst. Two keys: DEFENSE by smart players at vital locations at the right times and STRATEGIC OFFENSE...which is a funny phrase. Let's take these one at a time.



(Points snipped...look up in thread his points)



Your points about defence and strategy are excellent EXCEPT for one thing. Who does this stuff? Are there lots of people on ventrilo, because otherwise, I never see this huge strategy stuff be implemented except by chance. For example, IF you get a few tanks moving together, great, but I never see it planned, organzied, then implemented. If you had 6 people on defence at all positions at all times that'd be great too I suppose, but I never see it. Usually when I type in a few strategy ideas 95% of the time I get two responses...

1. "No sir!"

2. Nothing

For example, a few times in Barbossa in extremely long, no time limit games when everyone was stuck I tried several times to get people to move tanks to gather at our last remaining base, then push forward. No matter that we'd been stuck for almost 2 hours. No one listened, and no one gathered at the base (there was one guy on D). OK, that's fine. I don't bother trying that stuff anymore. I use quick commands like "fall back", "Move in", "attack right flank" and "attack left flank" only in the hope that perhaps one or two people might join in the manoveur, but generally I know most people are just trying to stay alive, move to one objective...defence, offence, protect one area...without dying, and if they meet up with someone going to the same are then great.


Another example...every time I start Barbossa on German I'd say "all to 3", or "go to 3" "take 3 first" etc. Of course, if someone wants to stay back, great, but I'm speaking to those in tanks moving forward. And on those occasions where our push down the right flank works and we defeat the enemy tanks and can move in on three, guess what happens 75% of the time. Over half the tanks stop, blow the top off two, and a lot of times someone tries and plant it! Now, this isn't great stategy, but I understand what is going on. Those who don't play all the time shoot the easy base because they can without getting killed. The map is always has plenty of n00bs, or so-so players who would be happy to plant an easy base rather than risk death or hard manoveurs. I understand that. I was a n00b once too, and a crappy player also. However, the point is, strategic manoveurs rarely happens except amongst small groups. Two or 3 guys manage to work well together occasionally, either on defence for one particular base, or on a nice assult. Personally, I'm just very happy when I pull up to a tank on a jeep where I have a passenger, and my passenger had the sense to grab a rocket launcher and we give it the ol' "1,2" rocket blast for the kill! IMO, what gets the job done best isn't master strategy as much as a few good players who can implement a plan without even discussing it.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. If someone wants to msg me during games to try and pull something "smart" off I'll gladly try and help if I can. Of course, just trying to surivive is hard enough sometimes, so on the field of battle, we all have to realize that the best laid plans often quickly go awry!

Oh, and back to the balance issue. Even if it is 48/52, I wonder if one more jeep at spawn for that 48% team might be all that is needed to get this number as close as possible?

And one more question for Slyk. Did you make Barbarossa? My question is that I notice in the vehicle description it talks about an armoured car. Is that really in there? If so, how come it isn't on the MOB Base Assult maps? Thanks. Great maps btw. I'm glad the balance issue is so small. I felt it was probably worse than that.

MoD

Remember when the first Barb came out and most of us hollered how unbalanced things were when we played as the ruskies.

"Final" means "Final". Let's face it, UO is dying. The last thing this map needs is a v1.1 or something to fragment the small server/player base that it has. Furthermore, there are STILL servers running either Beta1 or Beta2 of 'Barbarossa'. How freaking lazy/stupid are these people??? VERY, is your answer. Yeah, I'd like to fix those issues, but it gains no one anything at this point. If 100 servers were running it, yes, I'd look at a v1.1 fix. Otherwise, admins who can script a little can adjust the swamp pak. Otherwise, it is a waiting game. I am focused on learning the UnReal Editor for 'Red Orchestra' now. IW has torpedoed any desires for me to work with the CoD franchise in the future. If things change, maybe I'll be back to it, but for now, my CoD work is 'done'.

This isn't the maps fault tho, is it?

Smolensk requires A LOT more strategy than Barb (especially defensively)... I think eventually we'll all get the hang of it and the matches will improve even more. However, I think the MOB rulers should still seriously consider the CNQ option...

You might see a CNQ test in the near future... (if the planets align properly).

Smolensk is currently running in CNQ

Ok I'm the first to admit I can be an idiot.
This morning when I setup Smolensk for Conquest, I set the game type as
cqn <---wrong
not
cnq <<--- ding ding ding... you're a winner

This typo caused the map to be played in deathmatch mode.
My apologizes to anyone who joined the server trying to play Conquest and getting stuck with deathmatch.

[quote name='Slyk' date='02/20/06 1:14pm' post='95511'] . I am about 99% done with the CoD franchise ,. 'Red Orchestra' .AHz is moving forward to that game asap.




red orchestra looks veeeeeeeeeeery cool!! cant wait to try it.

HAHAHHAAHAHAAA that one spawn point must have been hell!! Actually, when we tested a lot of our maps, the two or three of us, Lex, IB and myself, would usually just run it in DM (especially when we worked on the vehicle package for Barb), and immediately after we tested the latest tweaks, it decended into an 'every man for himself' melee of tanks, satchels, arty, nades, you name it. Lots of fun and many wasted hours of dev time. Don't try it in TDM either, by the way, there's but one of those spawns as well.

I'm starting to think it's the Russian side that's weak in BAS on Smolensk. Last night, I saw the germans win 3 or 4 rounds in a row. (Or the clan that's been frequenting the server and stacking all on one team doesn't have a good strategy when they all play Russian.)

Some of the rounds last night were 3-0 (Germans), the rest were 3-1 (German). Most of the time, Russian #3 was last (but not always).

Anyone else noticing a pattern? The opposite? Is it simply a matter of who's on the team?

Note: Because of the German blitz at the start of the round (a good German team will have R1/R2 cracked within the first 3 minutes and planted immediately), I'm thinking that the start-of-round timer needs to be longer then it currently is. That allows people more time to connect and pick teams before the blitzkrieg starts.

scr_bas_startrounddelay

I'd recommend at least 30 seconds, maybe even 45-60. (But probably 40.) I believe it's something short like 5 or 10 seconds right now. Most of the time, at least half of the folks are still connecting when the round starts.

Can't say I've noticed a pattern. Although I find it more difficult to play from the German side.
I think it depends a lot who is playing at the time, rather than a balance issue.

It's near impossible to have fun playing this map if it's not at least 9vs9 or more. With less than 8 or 9 people aside it's rather boring as the game is usually won in 8 minutes without even making contact with the opposition!

I'm inclined to believe it's who's on the team. A few nights ago Germans were mauling Bolsheviks. And was there ever big whining from Josefs boys about how it was the worst map this and unbalanced that.... So next battle the 2 whiners switched sides and at the outset boisterously proclaimed how they'd joined the winning side. Well ruskiz soon got a fast victory 3-1 I believe the first match. The whiners left mid match after remarking how they hated the game......lol.

Like Barby 1 seemed to be in Germs favour, it took a learning process then it was discovered the map was quite balanced. Same with Smolensk. The big Rusky key to victory in my opinion is if the team stops mindlessly going up the middle as 'a whole' or as a--holes .
2 reasons;
1] They get to stop the obvious German flanking moves to get R1 fast and overwhelm the weak R3 area too.
2]Wide flanking moves are highly successful in the hilly wooded area on the Russian right- so much so that you can get into the German spawn area with not too much difficulty and steal German armour and head for G2 and G1 taking out any defence there from the rear with ease.
I'm not saying attack up the middle is pointless. It's effective for stopping attacks on R2 and halting German thrusts to fan out from the village to the rear/flanks of R1 and R3, but head on attacks against G1 and G2 are only getting pulled off when significant annoyance is made by many ruskiz playing about in the German spawn/rear areas via flank attacks. And the only teammates seeing the value of infiltration through stealth are the vets... unfortunately the noobs never grasp that - even with advice to do so.