After watching this video of 9-11, really makes you wonder.....Someone put alot of classified documentation into this video...just thought I would see what all you think.
Although it's a little lenghty, I am sure you will find it quite interesting. Let me know what you think..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848
Full Version: Terrorism or Government???
this has been debated in the war on terror forum
nothing classified in there.
A quick break down of all the B.S.
I knew it would be a waste to watch as soon as it started with the name Lemnitzer in reference to "Operation Norwood"
No reason to repost, you can read about it here.
http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/index...indpost&p=54890
How about the narrators description of the main policy document "Rebuilding America Defensives" by Project for the New American Century, as a "Neo Conservative think tank"
I especially like how they took a 100+ page book and broke it down to 1 paragraph that they just happen to take out of context. To be fair, at least this guy didn't go as far as many other conspiracy nuts to call it a secret document outling world domination. It always cracks me up when someone refers to it as a secret document. My question would be, how secret could it of been, it's been available on the web in it's entirety since early 2000, many parts available separately since 1998. Oh yea, some big secret.
How is it Norad dropped the ball and let the planes hit?
Prior to 9-11 Norad was only focused on the 150 miles which make up the Air Defence Identification Zone encircling North America. Its job was to help assess, within two minutes, if each of the 7,000 incoming aircraft every day is friend or foe. Prior to 9-11 they never monitered domestic flights.
The towers shouldnt have fallen, they were built to withstand the impact of a plane.
This is one of the more common misrepresent facts used to support the conspiracy nuts belief the towers were blown up.
This is misleading do to the fact the scenario of an aircraft hitting the WTC involved a 707 lost in fog looking for the airport, which was the most common and foreseen reason an aircraft would hit a skyscraper. This would mean the plane would be traveling around 180 or probably slower which is a huge difference from estimated speeds of the two aircraft of 470 and 590 at impact.
The formula for kinetic energy is .5*mass*(speed squared)
Using the speed of a plane traveling at 180mph lost in fog and you get 1.7Billion foot-lbs compared to the actual force of the planes hitting the towers ( 3.7Billion foot-lbs ), pretty damn big difference. BTW I actually think the whole point is moot because the towers obviously survived the impact otherwise they would of fallen right then. I'm only bringing this up to make the point, how misleading information was used to question why the towers collapsed. Pretty much every report and study concludes the collapse was caused by the resulting fire and not the actual impact.
Steel melts at 3000 degrees, the fires where not hot enough to cuase the building to collapse.
Another common point the conspiracy sites use to mislead.
When the 1st stories came out citing the fires as the cause of the collapse, every conspiracy nut jumped on the fact the fire didn't create enough heat to MELT the steel.
Melt was just a simplified term used to explain what happened, no one was trying to say the steel melted to the point of becoming molten. Steel's strength in relation to thermal breakdown is almost linear. At half the melting temperature steel has already lost half of it's strength.
Even when this point is argued to show the conspiracy nuts are wrong. The most common reply is the building was over built to start with and cite how the floor trusses where designed to handle 5 times their load so even if the steel had lost half of it's strength they where still well within their design limits.
Even this point is misleading and here is why. When the nuts talk about the load limits of the floor trusses they are talking about the live load limits. There is a very distinct and important difference between live and dead limits.
The dead limits take into account all the force placed on the trusses by the building. Keep in mind the trusses where required to transfer all the weight/force to the core support columns as the WTC had no internal load bearing walls.
Considering all the forces acting on the trusses and other support structure, the dead limits would be far higher than the active load limits.
My point is even though the trusses could of lost half of their strength and still supported their active load they surely wouldn't of also been within their design limits when you factor in the dead limits which would be much higher.
Also keep in mind the aircraft impacts removed a major part of the load bearing structure causing more weight to be applied to the remaining. This increased the dead weight limits even more.
As already mentioned, all of this has been discussed before.
If anyone is interested, here is the 18 page topic.
http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/index...?showtopic=6424
A quick break down of all the B.S.
I knew it would be a waste to watch as soon as it started with the name Lemnitzer in reference to "Operation Norwood"
No reason to repost, you can read about it here.
http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/index...indpost&p=54890
How about the narrators description of the main policy document "Rebuilding America Defensives" by Project for the New American Century, as a "Neo Conservative think tank"
I especially like how they took a 100+ page book and broke it down to 1 paragraph that they just happen to take out of context. To be fair, at least this guy didn't go as far as many other conspiracy nuts to call it a secret document outling world domination. It always cracks me up when someone refers to it as a secret document. My question would be, how secret could it of been, it's been available on the web in it's entirety since early 2000, many parts available separately since 1998. Oh yea, some big secret.
How is it Norad dropped the ball and let the planes hit?
Prior to 9-11 Norad was only focused on the 150 miles which make up the Air Defence Identification Zone encircling North America. Its job was to help assess, within two minutes, if each of the 7,000 incoming aircraft every day is friend or foe. Prior to 9-11 they never monitered domestic flights.
The towers shouldnt have fallen, they were built to withstand the impact of a plane.
This is one of the more common misrepresent facts used to support the conspiracy nuts belief the towers were blown up.
This is misleading do to the fact the scenario of an aircraft hitting the WTC involved a 707 lost in fog looking for the airport, which was the most common and foreseen reason an aircraft would hit a skyscraper. This would mean the plane would be traveling around 180 or probably slower which is a huge difference from estimated speeds of the two aircraft of 470 and 590 at impact.
The formula for kinetic energy is .5*mass*(speed squared)
Using the speed of a plane traveling at 180mph lost in fog and you get 1.7Billion foot-lbs compared to the actual force of the planes hitting the towers ( 3.7Billion foot-lbs ), pretty damn big difference. BTW I actually think the whole point is moot because the towers obviously survived the impact otherwise they would of fallen right then. I'm only bringing this up to make the point, how misleading information was used to question why the towers collapsed. Pretty much every report and study concludes the collapse was caused by the resulting fire and not the actual impact.
Steel melts at 3000 degrees, the fires where not hot enough to cuase the building to collapse.
Another common point the conspiracy sites use to mislead.
When the 1st stories came out citing the fires as the cause of the collapse, every conspiracy nut jumped on the fact the fire didn't create enough heat to MELT the steel.
Melt was just a simplified term used to explain what happened, no one was trying to say the steel melted to the point of becoming molten. Steel's strength in relation to thermal breakdown is almost linear. At half the melting temperature steel has already lost half of it's strength.
Even when this point is argued to show the conspiracy nuts are wrong. The most common reply is the building was over built to start with and cite how the floor trusses where designed to handle 5 times their load so even if the steel had lost half of it's strength they where still well within their design limits.
Even this point is misleading and here is why. When the nuts talk about the load limits of the floor trusses they are talking about the live load limits. There is a very distinct and important difference between live and dead limits.
The dead limits take into account all the force placed on the trusses by the building. Keep in mind the trusses where required to transfer all the weight/force to the core support columns as the WTC had no internal load bearing walls.
Considering all the forces acting on the trusses and other support structure, the dead limits would be far higher than the active load limits.
My point is even though the trusses could of lost half of their strength and still supported their active load they surely wouldn't of also been within their design limits when you factor in the dead limits which would be much higher.
Also keep in mind the aircraft impacts removed a major part of the load bearing structure causing more weight to be applied to the remaining. This increased the dead weight limits even more.
As already mentioned, all of this has been discussed before.
If anyone is interested, here is the 18 page topic.
http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/index...?showtopic=6424
Pretty tired last night....
Later realized that it should have been posted under the War on Terror Section...
Can this thread be moved???
Later realized that it should have been posted under the War on Terror Section...
Can this thread be moved???
These types of things can be discussed til the end of time but won't solve anything. We should just accept that we were attacked, it was very tragic, stop playing the blame game, and concentrate on not having it happen again.
As Saucy would say, W3rd
Well, I wish we didn't have anything like this to even talk/debate about. All and all, I think it was a tragic thing to happen and I believe our government had nothing to do with it. To think about all the money and manpower the US government is still putting into the rebuilding, etc.
Now, I live right outside DC and my father has worked at the Postal Service HQ for 30+ years. His building is directly across the Potomac from the Pentagon and his window has a nice view of it. From what he told me, he was talking with a buddy and something caught his eye. He looked over and saw a plane... atleast what he thought was a plane at first. He's still going with the plane story today, but he said it was going so fast and so low, it looks smaller than a plane. I was working down the street from the CIA HQ at a company called MITRE. They were evacuating us like nobody's business because our building was so close to CIA and we also had high level personel in our building. A few coworkers and I climbed to the roof and watched all the jet fighters screaming across the sky, circling, flying back over... mind you, there were still quite a few planes in the sky that weren't responding at this time. It still hadn't hit me yet, I guess I was still in awe of what had happened.
A few of my friends work for the Northern VA rescue/task force. I called them to see what I could do. They informed me to just go home because only specialized people were allowed inside the Pentagon. I won't even go into the stories they told me later, but needless to say... I fully believe it was an airplane that hit the Pentagon. I keep seeing all these conspiracy videos of people saying it was a rocket or "where are the wings?" I do know that all the parking lot and gas station videos were confiscated within 30 mins of the impact.
Everything was still jumping but I headed home so I could watch the news for a few hours and fully absorb what had happened. It was terrible ofcourse, but I still felt numb to it all. I couldn't get ahold of anyone because most of the phone lines were down or busy. So, it wasn't till the next morning that it hit me. I'm driving back to work and I'm listening to the radio. A local station was reading the news and said that Jerry Falwell or one of those crazy ministers said "This attack was all America's fault because of women's liberation and gay rights" Now, I don't care if someone is gay... never bothered me. But to blame a tragedy like this on something you don't agree with???? To blame Americans???? I started crying. I couldn't believe another American could do this, why would he say this?
Since then, I've turned my wrath towards the Phelps group. Those fuckheads protest fallen soldiers funerals to get their own agenda heard... it's so sick and disgusting. Sorry for jumping around on this post... just thinking about everything has so many things popping in my head right now.
Remember how patriotic this country was for the few months after 9/11? I really wish it could be like that all the time. Flags were sold out in all the stores, people were united....I really miss that.
Now, I live right outside DC and my father has worked at the Postal Service HQ for 30+ years. His building is directly across the Potomac from the Pentagon and his window has a nice view of it. From what he told me, he was talking with a buddy and something caught his eye. He looked over and saw a plane... atleast what he thought was a plane at first. He's still going with the plane story today, but he said it was going so fast and so low, it looks smaller than a plane. I was working down the street from the CIA HQ at a company called MITRE. They were evacuating us like nobody's business because our building was so close to CIA and we also had high level personel in our building. A few coworkers and I climbed to the roof and watched all the jet fighters screaming across the sky, circling, flying back over... mind you, there were still quite a few planes in the sky that weren't responding at this time. It still hadn't hit me yet, I guess I was still in awe of what had happened.
A few of my friends work for the Northern VA rescue/task force. I called them to see what I could do. They informed me to just go home because only specialized people were allowed inside the Pentagon. I won't even go into the stories they told me later, but needless to say... I fully believe it was an airplane that hit the Pentagon. I keep seeing all these conspiracy videos of people saying it was a rocket or "where are the wings?" I do know that all the parking lot and gas station videos were confiscated within 30 mins of the impact.
Everything was still jumping but I headed home so I could watch the news for a few hours and fully absorb what had happened. It was terrible ofcourse, but I still felt numb to it all. I couldn't get ahold of anyone because most of the phone lines were down or busy. So, it wasn't till the next morning that it hit me. I'm driving back to work and I'm listening to the radio. A local station was reading the news and said that Jerry Falwell or one of those crazy ministers said "This attack was all America's fault because of women's liberation and gay rights" Now, I don't care if someone is gay... never bothered me. But to blame a tragedy like this on something you don't agree with???? To blame Americans???? I started crying. I couldn't believe another American could do this, why would he say this?
Since then, I've turned my wrath towards the Phelps group. Those fuckheads protest fallen soldiers funerals to get their own agenda heard... it's so sick and disgusting. Sorry for jumping around on this post... just thinking about everything has so many things popping in my head right now.
Remember how patriotic this country was for the few months after 9/11? I really wish it could be like that all the time. Flags were sold out in all the stores, people were united....I really miss that.
Hey All,
Don't shoot the messenger, I just read some of these emails and am amazed. We don't hear alot of what goes on, so when we see a documentation like that it peeks our curiousity. That's why I like to get feedback from those of you that live there.
Getting input from you all, allows us a better understanding of what happened.
Just so you know....the terrible day of 9-11 will never be forgotten by your friendly Canadians. We support you all the way and feel for your great loss.
Always Fighting Against Terrorism!!!!!
Don't shoot the messenger, I just read some of these emails and am amazed. We don't hear alot of what goes on, so when we see a documentation like that it peeks our curiousity. That's why I like to get feedback from those of you that live there.
Getting input from you all, allows us a better understanding of what happened.
Just so you know....the terrible day of 9-11 will never be forgotten by your friendly Canadians. We support you all the way and feel for your great loss.
Always Fighting Against Terrorism!!!!!
I don't blame you for bringing it up, I understood you had an outsiders opinion an interest in this.
My issue is always the nuts who spend so much time making stuff like this up.
They use the same smoke & mirros that they clame the goverment used.
It alwys comes down to speculation, misrepresentation & conjecture presented in a way to make it appear as fact.
Examples.
Several of the people named as the terroisist were later found alive.
Big deal, this is fairly common, people enter this country all the time under false names.
Why would anyone be suprised, people who planned on doing this were here under an alias?
I'm willing to concede the point part of the problem stems from our governments inability to deal with things correctly. Everyone from the top down said they never conceived of an attack like this.
This was half true, there where dozens of discussions about this type of attack also several warning dating back almost 10 years.
What the government failed to specify was they never though about it being a domestic flight, they always assumed it would be an incoming international flight. 2 or 3 years before 9-11 a group of terrorist hyjacked a plane in France with the intention of crashing the plane into the Eiffel Tower, luckly the plane was stormed by special forces and never got off the ground.
My issue is always the nuts who spend so much time making stuff like this up.
They use the same smoke & mirros that they clame the goverment used.
It alwys comes down to speculation, misrepresentation & conjecture presented in a way to make it appear as fact.
Examples.
Several of the people named as the terroisist were later found alive.
Big deal, this is fairly common, people enter this country all the time under false names.
Why would anyone be suprised, people who planned on doing this were here under an alias?
I'm willing to concede the point part of the problem stems from our governments inability to deal with things correctly. Everyone from the top down said they never conceived of an attack like this.
This was half true, there where dozens of discussions about this type of attack also several warning dating back almost 10 years.
What the government failed to specify was they never though about it being a domestic flight, they always assumed it would be an incoming international flight. 2 or 3 years before 9-11 a group of terrorist hyjacked a plane in France with the intention of crashing the plane into the Eiffel Tower, luckly the plane was stormed by special forces and never got off the ground.
QUOTE
2 or 3 years before 9-11 a group of terrorist hyjacked a plane in France with the intention of crashing the plane into the Eiffel Tower, luckly the plane was stormed by special forces and never got off the ground.
Luckily? That one was a coin toss on which side I wanted to see win. It's France, I am surprised the frogs didn't run up a white flag and form a Vici government ran by the towel heads on the plane.
[font=Arial][/font]
Luckily? That one was a coin toss on which side I wanted to see win. It's France, I am surprised the frogs didn't run up a white flag and form a Vici government ran by the towel heads on the plane.
Coin toss to see if 'hopefully' hijackers could carry out an attempt of terrorism? What if you had American tourists in the Eiffel tower? Would you have still expressed a 'woot woot' attitude.
towel heads... towel heads helped the Coalition overthrow the Taliban for one thing.
Frogs....
-helped liberate you know who at Yorktown.
-Take care of the Normandy war cemeteries memorials with dignity and passion.
-had an extensive Resistance network while the loathsome Vichy govt. was in place, and the French suffered dozens of cruel episodes of mass hostage executions and village obliterations as reprisals to Resistance activities....
ok, so it's more than a perception some French have a snooty attitude to many foreigners. But is your attitude more commendable? In my opinion its that divisiveness through hating attitudes by elements in societies, cultures and countries all over the world is why we can't see eye to eye and at least get along. Contempt breeds contempt.
Just so you know....the terrible day of 9-11 will never be forgotten by your friendly Canadians. We support you all the way and feel for your great loss.
Always Fighting Against Terrorism!!!!!
I think its more a matter of us all supporting each other equally -or else.... and we all have the potential to feel that loss; as a few contries have already since 9-11.
Even though being up north of the border, I watch more U.S cable news than Canadian news and it irks me when I hear the neo-cons commenting on 9-11, insinuate 3000 Americans lost their lives, just as much as I hear morons up here say things like America had it coming.... the victims were people of many races, religious faiths, and walks of life- hundreds of victims from over 85 different countries.
I remind the too-lefty dimwits up here that get into this topic with me, all those victims were regular human beings who began the day working a regular work shift or just simply travelling.
QUOTE(={DMG}=ashe @ 03/10/06 9:20am) 
QUOTE
2 or 3 years before 9-11 a group of terrorist hyjacked a plane in France with the intention of crashing the plane into the Eiffel Tower, luckly the plane was stormed by special forces and never got off the ground.
Luckily? That one was a coin toss on which side I wanted to see win. It's France, I am surprised the frogs didn't run up a white flag and form a Vici government ran by the towel heads on the plane.
Coin toss to see if 'hopefully' hijackers could carry out an attempt of terrorism? What if you had American tourists in the Eiffel tower? Would you have still expressed a 'woot woot' attitude.
towel heads... towel heads helped the Coalition overthrow the Taliban for one thing.
Frogs....
-helped liberate you know who at Yorktown.
-Take care of the Normandy war cemeteries memorials with dignity and passion.
-had an extensive Resistance network while the loathsome Vichy govt. was in place, and the French suffered dozens of cruel episodes of mass hostage executions and village obliterations as reprisals to Resistance activities....
ok, so it's more than a perception some French have a snooty attitude to many foreigners. But is your attitude more commendable? In my opinion its that divisiveness through hating attitudes by elements in societies, cultures and countries all over the world is why we can't see eye to eye and at least get along. Contempt breeds contempt.
QUOTE(T/A6Pak)
Just so you know....the terrible day of 9-11 will never be forgotten by your friendly Canadians. We support you all the way and feel for your great loss.
Always Fighting Against Terrorism!!!!!
I think its more a matter of us all supporting each other equally -or else.... and we all have the potential to feel that loss; as a few contries have already since 9-11.
Even though being up north of the border, I watch more U.S cable news than Canadian news and it irks me when I hear the neo-cons commenting on 9-11, insinuate 3000 Americans lost their lives, just as much as I hear morons up here say things like America had it coming.... the victims were people of many races, religious faiths, and walks of life- hundreds of victims from over 85 different countries.
I remind the too-lefty dimwits up here that get into this topic with me, all those victims were regular human beings who began the day working a regular work shift or just simply travelling.
While you typed that bleeding heart liberal nonsense:
3 dolphins were caught and killed in tuna nets
2 whales were harpooned for their blubber
16 trees were chopped down to make way for power lines
1.5 billion cars continued to pollute the environment
200 million french continued to be free due to the USA they now hate
Should you not have been hugging those trees? Blowing up a Toyota lot? Saving the whales? Seems like such a waste of time for one such as yourself to be typing a reply post to a right wing nut job, hate mongering, french hating, muslim faith despising, moron such as myself. I am clearly to uneducated to be debating with someone with as much world and historical insight as yourself. I secede the point.
3 dolphins were caught and killed in tuna nets
2 whales were harpooned for their blubber
16 trees were chopped down to make way for power lines
1.5 billion cars continued to pollute the environment
200 million french continued to be free due to the USA they now hate
Should you not have been hugging those trees? Blowing up a Toyota lot? Saving the whales? Seems like such a waste of time for one such as yourself to be typing a reply post to a right wing nut job, hate mongering, french hating, muslim faith despising, moron such as myself. I am clearly to uneducated to be debating with someone with as much world and historical insight as yourself. I secede the point.
QUOTE(={DMG}=ashe @ 03/10/06 4:44pm)
While you typed that bleeding heart liberal nonsense:
3 dolphins were caught and killed in tuna nets
2 whales were harpooned for their blubber
16 trees were chopped down to make way for power lines
1.5 billion cars continued to pollute the environment
200 million french continued to be free due to the USA they now hate
Should you not have been hugging those trees? Blowing up a Toyota lot? Saving the whales? Seems like such a waste of time for one such as yourself to be typing a reply post to a right wing nut job, hate mongering, french hating, muslim faith despising, moron such as myself. I am clearly to uneducated to be debating with someone with as much world and historical insight as yourself. I secede the point.
3 dolphins were caught and killed in tuna nets
2 whales were harpooned for their blubber
16 trees were chopped down to make way for power lines
1.5 billion cars continued to pollute the environment
200 million french continued to be free due to the USA they now hate
Should you not have been hugging those trees? Blowing up a Toyota lot? Saving the whales? Seems like such a waste of time for one such as yourself to be typing a reply post to a right wing nut job, hate mongering, french hating, muslim faith despising, moron such as myself. I am clearly to uneducated to be debating with someone with as much world and historical insight as yourself. I secede the point.
What point!
Funny in that long-winded confession you don't regret your wish the terrorists had succeeded in crashing a jet into the Eiffel Tower.
You calling me a tree hugging hippy liberal is like me referring to you as a jackbooted goose-stepping neo-con fundamentalist who would not be below making a power sharing deal with terrorist fanatical fundamentalists much like Hitler did with Stalin in 1939. Is everyone who disagrees with your generalized name-calling views a heathen out to get you and your vision of America? I don't agree 200 million French hate Americans, but I'm pretty sure they all hate someone like you. You'd be surprised at who hates what if you go there or speak to 'real' French people. You only prove you neo-cons have your heads so high in the clouds you're out of touch with what's going on in the real world and mistakenly believe the majority of Americans all agree with your 'ideals' and tantrums..
ps.You don't need to add 'nut job' when you say right wing.
You are Canadian, arent you.
QUOTE(={DMG}=ashe @ 03/11/06 10:04am)
You are Canadian, arent you.
You can't argue your case [re: hoping the terrorists could crash a plane into a tourist attraction killing passengers and sightseers].... can you?
Hellfighter, I've found you can't fight ignorance with intellegence...it just doesn't work.
Call him a poopy mouth and you shall win the day.
Call him a poopy mouth and you shall win the day.
QUOTE(CommanderChoth @ 03/20/06 12:04pm)
Hellfighter, I've found you can't fight ignorance with intellegence...it just doesn't work.
Call him a poopy mouth and you shall win the day.
Call him a poopy mouth and you shall win the day.
lol, it was won as soon that individual typed the first letter of their post. I just want 'them' to know their twisted ideas won't go unanswered with a reality check reply at least once.
Leave that prick Hellfighter. He doesnt see that France and the rest of Europe are the biggest economic partners of the US. A disaster in the EU is a stomp at the US, as it is the other way around.
I'm pretty sure that the French hates Ashe like he hates them... Only the French have a good reason to do so, while he hasnt. You can't hate people because their nationality, nor can you generalise a whole nation/country. Hating a individual is a difrent matter as you can dislike his opinion, atitude and behavior.
I cant hate the US, Canada, France, Iraq, Germany, N. Korea and so on. as I don't know all of their people.
The fact that you would like to see a plain crash in the Eifel Tower makes you just as bad as a Extreamist, Terrorist. Hurting a nation by killing inocent civilians.
ashe, its people like you that makes the world look awkward at the US. Think about it.
I'm pretty sure that the French hates Ashe like he hates them... Only the French have a good reason to do so, while he hasnt. You can't hate people because their nationality, nor can you generalise a whole nation/country. Hating a individual is a difrent matter as you can dislike his opinion, atitude and behavior.
I cant hate the US, Canada, France, Iraq, Germany, N. Korea and so on. as I don't know all of their people.
The fact that you would like to see a plain crash in the Eifel Tower makes you just as bad as a Extreamist, Terrorist. Hurting a nation by killing inocent civilians.
ashe, its people like you that makes the world look awkward at the US. Think about it.
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