We had a really heated and lenthy discussion on TS tonight about terrorism, American policy etc. At the end, even though we were devided on opinion, we all agreed we were gamers and Mob members and had some really good games. Nice to know I belong to that caliber of people......

My hat goes off to you all.....peace

I didn't say much as you cant really give a indebt reaction to something with so many people on one channel. Debating isnt about I'm good and you are wrong. My side your side.... its: I see it like this, did you ever saw it like that?

Its useless to discuss with people that believe that what they think is completely true.
I live my life in a way that everyone may and can confince me on everything, as I believe there is no truth in life.

Amen, brother!

I am happy to report that nobody lost their tempers, took offence, or resorted to ad hominem attacks.
I was, unfortunately, unsurprised that none of the Americans in the discussion had ever heard of "The Project for a New American Century". For some reason, few American conservatives seem to have heard of this think tank, established in 1997, that formulated so much of what has now become US foriegn policy. In fact, according to "project Censored", the most under-reported story of 2002-03 was the neoconservative plan for global dominance. http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/

I promised to provide some links to info on this topic. Here ya go. Whatever your views on it, I think all Americans should be aware of its existance.

A google search for "Project for the New American Century" returns 170 million results. There is a LOT of info out there for whoever wants to look for it. An awful lot of the pages make no pretence of objectivity. When in doubt, go right to the horses mouth: the official PNAC website.
http://www.newamericancentury.org

PNAC Statement of principals: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
Check out the list of signatories at the bottom.

One of PNAC's first actions was, in Jan 1998, to send a letter to President Clinton urging him to invade Iraq. http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Note that links to terrorism were not among the reasons given to invade. According the The PNAC Primer ( http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm ), "President Clinton replied that he was focusing on dealing with al-Qaida terrorist cells." I haven't verified that elsewhere.

In Sept. of 2000 (a year before the 911 attacks), PNAC released their plan, titled "Rebuilding Americas Defenses", in which they outline their plans to dominate the world through military force. This is probably the most widely quoted PNAC document. Here it is, in PDF format: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebuildi...casDefenses.pdf

Some highlights:
(Page numbers I give refer to the PDF document, not the numbers shown in the text of the document)

-The U.S. must take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein is in power: "While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." (pg 26)

-"New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool" (my emphasis) (pg 72)

-Politically, the transformation to these new policies would be slow, "absent some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor" (pg 63).

Note that the report contains no specific mention of the threat of terrorism or Al Queda.

On the left, it is widely believed that the Bush government seized eagerly and cynically on the 911 attacks as a golden opportunity to forward their policy goals. It seems a little to convenient to find that all the things they wanted to do anyway were now essential to fight terrorism, when terrorism was clearly not a factor in the formulation of these policies. In fact, within hours of the 911 attacks, Rumsfeld was already searching for ways to blame Iraq, despite early evidence Bin Ladin, not Iraq, was responsible.
( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/...ain520830.shtml )

For further reading, Wikipedia is a good place to start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_t...merican_Century

Additional bonus factiod:

Have you ever heard of Operation Ajax? No? It was the CIA's 1953 operation to overthow Irans first (and only) democratically elected Government, and install a brutal dictator more friendly to US and British business interests. The US continued to support this dictator (the Shah) for another 25 years, until he was overthrown by the fundamentalist islamic movement that still rules today.
America seems to have forgotten this. The Muslim world hasn't. Newsflash: They don't hate you because of your freedoms! There's a little more to it that that, but the US media don't seem eager to tell you about it.

Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

it is gonna take some time to research all that data lol.....Just for the record, I think you have entirely toooo much free time on your hands lol....j/k. I will try and check it all out.



But for the record, it was not American policy that I was defending last night...it was the war on terror and I would support that no matter what country commits to making a stand. I have no problem with knowing our government is somewhat and has been corrupt. Can you name one country that isn't? Like you said, the problem is since we are the last true super power, whatever we do impacts the entire world. Now that is not an American fault or problem. We are simply like stars. Take Pee Wee Herman for instance. He got caught masterbating in public so now he is a pervert. What I don't get about that is.....is he is a pervert not because he done it in public, but done it period. My question is, do you or have you ever masterbated in public or private? I would lay a ton of doe on the table with a hyperdermic full of truth serum yet you are not labeled a pervert. I hope you get the point. As it stands, I could google Canda and skandal as well and we all know you have it too, but I choose to mind my own business and not try and make your government look bad. Even though as I said last night have a ton of friends in Canada and visit St. Cathrins about once a year where we all gather and game, they all have one thing in common....they are obsessed with American Curruption. May I just ask you guys nicely once again to just game and keep the finger pointing to a minimum......I am asking ok?

The PNAC has been discussed several times on this very forum.

I must say, I did get a laugh out of your charatierization of the PNAC as
"an outline for their plans to dominate the world through military force."
Don't know where your read that.
I've read the whole document start to finish, plus half a dozen times looking info up.
I found it addressed several very real problems we as America had up to the time failed to focus on as the Cold War ended.
Such as...
It addresses in several ways the likely failure of the UN, when it compared it's "peacekeeping" attempts in the Blakens to that of NATO.
The need to shift focus from our previous required military abilites based on European conflicts to the growing likelyhood of action in the Pacific theater.
Close to a quater of the paper focuses on the need for a missle defense program.

Yeah, but I think we maintained it to a civil lively conversation rather than anything approaching antagonistic. I think it's good people open up with their opinions and be open to listening to others whether agreeing or not in the end, and still be on good terms - like we did that night.

Today I watched Bush give a pretty good account of himself in his 1 hour News Conference session.... and I'm never really impressed by him having to defend his policies.

Just to clarify myself a bit further from my attempt to be objective that night Dienamic [ ], I should say I was for the decision to to War, not because of the assumed al Quada links, but more on better safe than sorry reasoning. Around that time I was getting into reading about pre-WW2 Churchill years. The failure of the League of Nations in the 1930's at that time on many fronts [ Alsace-Lorraine,Manchuria, Ethiopia, Spanish Civil War, Czechs] and everyone scoffing at Chuchill's warnings of impending global disaster at the hands of Fascism, made me reflect on the way many wanted to believe there was nothing to the claims of prominent Iraqi exiles claiming an offensive nuclear program was in the works [which we now know was bs]. Mr.C.Powell's 'proof conference' with the supposed Iraqi virus wartruck and mini terror planes backfired and really should have shown everyone in my opinion why the Bush admin was really heading for Iraq - more out of preventing a what-if future disaster scenario rather than based on concrete proof.

So while I do Bush-bash [even more-so the neo-cons], I do take a solitary stand -and heavy flak defending some U.S viewpoints, when some of my fellow canucks tend to fly off the handle with the more non-sensical rantings that you mentioned hearing alot about.

"I am Canadian"

Just thought I would lighten the topic....Cheers

were is too exclusive?

no problem Hellfighter.....Like I said, I have a lot of Canadian friends that I hold dear. probably as much or more so than anyone here.

I just cannot understand the hard on against the United States that tends to be the trend thier. I guess I need to do more research to see when we pissed in thier cheerios.

Until then.....Go Mob!!!!! Canadian, American, Dutch, etc etc. Hell I even like Silver and I suspect him of being a Japanese midget wrestler.

Rest assured Dienamic my chum, I'm sure its just really hard-on to the neo-con's policies rather than typical Americans in general [that incident a few years ago in Montreal re;booing the US anthem in hockey game really didn't help matters ].

I bet the majority of folks around the world with this global hard-on will tell you they have no bitterness to typical American folk, coca cola, and Macdonalds ... and I bet those that are hard core haters though will never be satisfied, and conveniently forget who spearheaded the halt to the genocide in the Balkans, and cleared up the refugee calamity along the Afghan/Pakistan border - they perhaps need to do more research... it's like no matter how nice you can be, there's always someone who hates you [geezus, look at what happened to Ghandi!].

Like I said, I'm not a Bush admirer, but the last couple of days of his talking at meetings/conferences were pretty solid and the usual blunders were replaced with assertiveness. Anyway I'll end it at that before I over-babble.... the Silver-wrestler thing I won't touch.

LOL.....good enough. I have been thinking alot about this. I have come to the conclusion that America as a Nation can not win over the majority in the world period for more reasons than we even discussed. The problem is as follows. If we assist countries that need help, we get into the realm of "you really screwed this up, now get outta there and leave it be" or If we do not help out, we are bastards with more on our minds than "the right thing to do".

In the end, America, it's leaders, military and yes even it's people will be hated by someone as there is no pleasing everyone. We are just easy targets when liberals or alike are having a bad life or simply need to picket or boycott something.

It is the nature of man to bitch about things especially when it envolves someone who can make a difference or is in authority. Oh ya, for the record, I am nooo Bush fan and I knew that if elected, he would try and finish what his dad started. Bad choice George..... I am however an American to my socks and will always support and defend her to the end. I just tend to get a little ticked when I am addressed with this issue as I have lost family and friends in WW2, Nam, Korea and this one. For the most part, they were just doing what thier Country asked of them.

Anyway, no bad bro.....as a Mob member, you are my universal bro as Stickman and whoever else that was not lucky enough to be born here lol......escuse me while I get out my flame retardent pantaloons...

lol, sounds kinky!

Sorry I caused so much diversion from the game. So I'm not misquoted what I said was America is going to conquer the world in the name of peace and money is how she will do it. I'm not against the U.S. or the world and its not in my hands anyway. its just the way I see it. Enough of this thats it I DO NOT WANT IT TO COME BETWEEN ME AND YOU. I love MOB and BARBAROSA . Its all fun GOOSEDOWN

lol......check your mail you goosy woosy



and yes...we shall borrow money from every country until we have it all!