Apparently a London terror style plot targeting various Toronto/Ontario objectives was foiled. No time to comment in depth on it myself.
Perhaps 6pak [with her regional/work experience] can add some of her thoughts on the topic?

One of those terrorist have served in canadian military for 4 years! How come we accept guys like that in the military.....cause we don't want to be accused of racism? What do you think about letting muslim enroll without studying were they come from, their family's and their belief about their religion? Don't get me wrong ...i know not all muslim are fanatics!!

I think its an error to judge the Canadian Forces enrollment policy along racist/discriminating viewpoints - a broad spectrum of cultures and colours and sexes only makes for a healthier fighting force reflective of the society they are defending. Just about every democratic army in the world has people signed up in their armies from every faith and religion, or non-religion. Its not like the guy had a sign on his head saying 'I'm a potential terrorist'. Also, that bozo may not even initially have had any terrorist inclinations prior to signing up.... from what I hear so far, he had very little infantry training and was far from a capable/model soldier in those entire four years. This flunker/loser mentality he obviously had may have contributed to his warped logic that getting together with other similar dumbasses to plan on destroying innocent lives would give him some 'staus' in the eyes of fellow extremist monkeys. One positive footnote up here is several Canadian/Arab organizations loudly/vocally blasting the plotters.

I don't say don't allow them to enroll it's true your army reflect your population....but when you got a guy who is a muslim, who his parents were born in another country, maybe he should get more attention than a " 3rd generation canadian".

That's my thought!!

.... Most of the entire population up here are honest enough to consider young Canada as a nation of immigrants [the growing percentage of which are recent immigrants/ 1st/2nd generation Canadians] settling with the original native populations. In particular, Toronto and its suburbs are a true vast kaleidoscope of dozens of cultures. Up here it's Canadian first by all> generally, and for the last couple of decades the idea of a hierarchy of who is more a Canadian by virtue of number of generations or just recently arrived or born as a first generation Canadian is pooped upon> Wisely so....

"Getting more attention" when enrolling is is an equal opportunity process as in any army. Backgrounds are presumably checked thoroughly. For example, Timothy McVeigh got in the army, no one could have predicted what mayhem he'd be carrying out years later. The same with the former Canadian Parachute regiment that was dissolved following its Somalia mission [1990s] ; one reason being when a pattern of flagrant neo-nazism was being practised by several of its members. Basically, I'm saying it's hard to predict what a rare few individuals may end up scheming after they leave the service, or once they have been accepted.

But moreover, this wannabe terrorist scumbucket was very derelict in duties from what we're hearing so far, so its hard to imagine he took full advantage of weapons familiarity.

I was sun bathing in Las Vegas...drinking by the pool, when some people informed us of this.

The problem with Canada...is that they let anyone in!!!! People come here and get temporary passports..report them stolen and sell them to people on the black market. Our goverment will issue them a new one. Canada government often treats everyone as humanitarians. If you commit a crime while on a temporary citenship...your suppose to get deported. People just move to Toronto or Montreal and hide our and steal someone elses identity.

These issues really heat me up...due to the fact that I deal with this politcal bull shi* everyday! I think it's the only thing I can't stand about Canada. Oh yea...also we should have the death penalty. That's why people take safe haven here. We won't deport someone to another county if they may get the death penalty. BULL!!! Send them away....



Just to add....

If you come to our County you should follow our rules!!! And vice-versa.

Prime example...A police officer...(I believe from the Toronto region, felt he should be able to wear his turbin while on duty. Guess what he won. That's crap. It has nothing to do with your beliefs..this is due to the fact that we have a uniform issued. This uniform is to show we are military and makes us stand out and visible to the people. We all wear the same issued hats and uniforms...it's not like I say: Oh, I'm a female so I want to wear a pink uniform hat. Uniforms are to make all one in the same...just like McDonalds or school uniforms.

Now this guy makes an issue that it's his religion and culture to wear a turbin. And now he does not have to wear his issued hat. As far as I am concerned he should go police in his country where they wear turbins as part as there uniform. I am sure that if I showed up in his country to police...that I would not be eliminated from covering my entire face with cloth because I am female.

This is not prejudice...this is our practice....other countries don't change there's for us...why should we change ours for them????????

Amen, 6pak! I am a very tolerant person, but political correctness is being used against us (us being a general term for Western countries). I may not agree with a lot of the ideas of the French, but their laws of "equality" say that no school child in a public school (is that all they have?) can have any identifying religious emblems. So in a country of Catholics, no child can wear a cross on a chain, or a saints medal. However, the Muslims have been fighting this because of thier religious beliefs. In no way am I anti-Muslim, but this law is in place to prevent people from discrimination! And yet here you have immigrants fighting for "thier rights" to do whatever they want in the country it was their choice to move to. Nobody forced them to move to France. What a horrible thing that would be, lol. But you have Muslims choose to move to France, and then they protest the laws that try to keep people from being treated differently. What a crock of ****!
I just don't understand how you can choose to live somewhere and then fight to change the laws of the place you chose to live. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I like what you say 6pak, you never ear it though on television or in any media cause people are scared to be called racist!! Here in Quebec the education minister a couple of years ago made our school non-catholic took out all the crucifix from the classroom! But last year a sikh(the religion) boy was allowed to wear his kirpan at school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

Hey we don't want him to feel bad cause he can't bring his object of cult at school!
Another thing in montreal last year some muslim people asked to be able to aply their own law the sharia!! And believe it or not some people studied the possibility of giving them these right.....can you believe some canadian would have accept some immigrant to apply their own law!!

I hate what we are becoming, we are forgetting our liberty and our roots to make immigrant feel more like they are in their own country! Sorry... like 6pak said you're in my country you go by my rules you don't like it go back !!! As for the immigrant breaking our rules or making crimes.....don't put them in jail we are paying for people that are in jail i'd rather give him a one way ticket to his original country!!

That was my opinion!!
C ya!

We do send monsters back for the death penalty;
Google up Charles Ng and his monstrosities, see how he fled across the border into Alberta [?] and was caught by chance... then our government came to terms with the fact that it would indeed be wise to send him back to California to face justice and thankfully the death penalty not to mention give great sighs of relief to the loved ones of the multiple victims of this vermin. It occurred however only after lengthy debate and the swaying point was the issue of by letting him stay here, other vile law breakers could come up in Canada [even flock here perhaps]to live out their natural days.

I disagree on the uniform issue. First the 'go back to their country' term has nothing to do with their religious beliefs. Natural born Canadians can be of a variety of religions. Saying you see a different point of view other than an opinion that might offend someone hardly is about being scared you'll be called a racist- it's simply someone else having a different viewpoint- naturally there may indeed be a small percentage on either side who are indeed racist or even scared to be called racist, but generally most people will argue out their points without fear. I don't think you're racist for your viewpoints which I do respect. It's like someone who hates Bush's policies being called a Bush hater and having no actual opinions on Bush's 'leadership'.
I was in Toronto in the 1970s/80s and several somewhat 'raging' debates flared up occasionally regarding police 'uniformity'. There was the issue of female inclusion ; their duties/uniforms capabilities.... there was the issue of minimal height requirement being amended when a south-east asian was denied inclusion into the police force because gentically people of his culture were several inches shorter than the average Westerner's height. The general public were consumed with fear at how any change to the current physique standards would be the end of everything. Then the most famous case at that time was a fellow who had a 'hat issue' when he joined the RCMP.

At first I was against the idea along with the majority but I changed my opinion as the wheels of democratic debate and discussion kicked in... The main argument being how do these issues affect the performance of those who wish to dedicate their lives to serving their society? A major human trait is to resist change during complacency. Since this Sikh won the lifting of the turban ban in the RCMP all has not gone to hell in that elite contingent of law enforcement. In 1974 a dress code alteration [pardon the pun] was made in the RCMP regarding female officers. To me such debates are similar to those resistors of gays and females in the military /fighting roles. I feel like sticking a karate kick through my television when I hear resistors saying such an 'idea' won't/doesn't work. One of my side researches are females fighting in wars throughout history, in particular if one reads up on their fighting distinction in the Sovier Army in WW2 there'd be no need to discuss a female's desire to be on the front line on the ground. Same with gays; they've been fighting in armies forever, why ban them just because they become 'known'!

To me inclusion of cultures in a democracy defines what seperates us from the anti-democracy nations. It says progression as opposed to stagnation and regression. Those cultures are backwards thinking - a few weeks ago in Iraq[?] , 2 Iraqi guys were murdered because they wore shorts! Someting to do with a monkey-brained [imo] Sharia law being broken. People aren't flocking to immigrate to those countries. Unfortunately not enough 'middle-class joes' and their families are let into Canada some upset with immigration to get a real appreciation for seeing first-hand the similarities of foreign hard workers with similar life ambitions. Priority is given to the very wealthy or very hard up. We have the laws in place to deal with immigrant evil-doers and send them back to their countries, but like most government departments in many Western nations, the process is drawn out and backed up.

In Canada we should appreciate how our system discusses social ideas, and much more often than not the radical/dangerous ideas are indeed done away with.... and personally, if I had a kid I wouldn't want them sitting in class next to anyone with a dagger; as for turbans in the ranks... the sun will rise tomorrow and everything will grind along again normally.



ps. Not to defend those that seek chaotic law changes [like the extreme Muslims fighting to have women with veils not being required to take them off for license ids!!!] but natural born folks in democratic nations occasionally seek to amend Laws - especially the outdated ones.

Just about every wave of immigrants [ irish to south american to whatever] in our young nation has been bashed at some point often along the lines of 'what we are becoming'. This is definately nothing new and you'd be hard-pressed to define what real Canadian roots are... aboriginal, French, British??... the majority of Canadians are a mixed bag culturally but generally think of Canada first. Most immigrants are coming here to start a new life...it's just more apparent that those that don't, make the headlines [imo].

Hey mon chum Hell, my only point is that if you immigrate in another country you live like they do in that country i'm against the "Ghettoisation" chinese all regroup in chinese quarter, italian in little italia and so on.How do you want to integrate in a new country if you don't mix with other people? I agree with you the people you here about in the media is always the minority and they make a bad image for the others!!

Why should we provide room at the university of montreal,for muslims to go pray?When we cannot put crucifix in the classroom! Why we should allow a boy to go to school with a knife? When there's more and more violence in schools! Why can't i say i don't like gay people without being called a homophobic? Or say we should control more our immigration without being called a racist? Especially in quebec, you have to be very carefull about what you say!! I am not racist, but i'm proud of my ancestor and the work they have done to build my country and we should never forget them. Like for a Haitien or chinese or Indian, they should never forget about their roots and their history, you need to know where you come from to know where you go!
But when those guys immigrate here they can be proud of their history and roots but don't forget you left your country cause you did'nt liked the way it was going in that country so don't come here and try to impose your way of living!!

But again i agree it's minority that makes problem!! A lot of immigrant are good workers and do jobs that other don't want to do, and they integrate in our country!

I see all of your points Wotansvolk and respect them -really! But these issues are not unique to bending-over-backwards democratic nations- foreigners are de-'libertised' in some Asian, Muslim, African nations... those states are repressive in the fact that they engage in laws to keep everyone conforming to one ideal in my opinion-> sure are own system is not perfect but it's generally based on freedom of choice; of course there are a few clowns who come here and want to bring ugly repressive cultural practices and honestly though these issues produce lively debates, generally such ideas in reality will be squashed [like the proposal banning Ethiopian[?] young female circumcision practise in Toronto [90s ?] ....

I deplore people culturally isolating themselves, but I don't care if folks have their cultural festivals AND integrate with the general society. I myself immigrated here from the UK -the only cultural thing I do now is have chips with salt n' vinegar [and blabber with Cross here in cockney ] . I've lived all across Canada and been around a bit seeing how many cities has their own little Italy, Chinatown, Carib section, and heard all the "immigrants are turning anti-Canadian/West lifestyle" arguments for years and years... but our great country though not perfect, is VERY healthy compared to other nations who have large settlements of recent immigrants. From these 'enclaves' are future citizens who do integrate to keep our great nation healthy and free and from which have come the builders of our new nation as we know it and enjoy the benefits of [ another fact is that quite a few of the new arrivals though we see them doing everyday jobs not considered highly skilled are in fact very very high skilled by what their former job was in their country of origins but have no choice with their current employment-temporarily] You can imagine the first generations of all these immigrants had their original cultural routines in their community lifestyles [eastern europe, asian, carib, mid east lately... and I argue in reality only a very small percentage of new arrivals are self-cloistered/anti social and/or BS disturbers by nature.

Like I said we would probably in fact have very similar agreements on many ideas on this topic and I'm all for slapping down some of the same 'cultural' proposals as you perhaps. But my contention is that we[Canada and other immigrant influxed democratic nations] show ourselves as the way of the future by openly discussing even contreversial of ideas by not fearing to at least confront the issues [ in this process too, those foreign/cultural hardliners may learn about freedom of choice and discussion- and even get used to that 'foreign' idea]. I'm glad we're not a backwards fundamentalist state where there are goons in jackboots enforcing sweeping 'everyone tows the same line' rules/laws and the fear is of your family/friends turning on you if you whisper any dissension. I just have serious misgivings about starting to tread on that path of hardcore conformity... its hard to turn back and something precious/unique is lost.

ps. regarding people branding someone with a 'title' rightly or wrongly that goes along with expressing an opinion... why be defensive about that- it's part of the debate process... it's then up to you to make your argument that in fact you are not what you are accused of being... If you're correct, you will easily silence your critics or leave them muttering without a counter argument. I'm mostly about people just simply getting along decently above all else and knowing perhaps each others roots to better appreciate inclusion and diversity. I love the Quebecois since moving here and unlike a few across the nation that brand Quebec in unfair terms, I find folks here as friendly as anywhere else... now regarding the French sign laws ... another topic.

It always makes me laugh when people say that in the name of liberty, we must limit the behaviour of others.

Liberty means you can live however you like, unless there is a damn good societal reason why you should be prevented from doing so. An immigrant wants to live in a "Ghetto" with others of his nationality? Well, it's a free country! IMHO, it makes a city much more interesting and vital when different neighbourhoods have different ethnic flavors. I've always considered that one of the few redeeming features of Toronto.
Besides, I guarantee you that if you ever move to a nation with a seriously different culture, you'll be damn tempted to find a "Canadian ghetto" where you can get a bit of respite from the culture shock.

Wotan, in MY country (Canada), the rules are that we respect the cultural and religious differences of our residents, even if they aren't of european extraction. We are a cultural mosaic. If you want a melting pot, move a couple of hundred miles south.

From that perspective, it seems obvious that respecting a sihks cultural and religious beliefs regarding his turban outweigh the trivial desire to see all the police wearing the same hat.

It seems obvious that if a significant number of students are required by their religion to pray 5 times a day, it would be a good idea to set aside an area for them to do so undisturbed.

It also seems obvious that there are limits to this. Canada has a charter of rights and freedoms, and a body of laws. This trumps an individuals cultural and religious values. Equality among the sexes is well established in canadian law, and Sharia law violates this, so, IMO, should not be allowed. But by all means, if someone disagrees, they should feel free to protest and lobby for a change. That's freedom at work.

We are very lucky in Canada (and the US) that, as nations of immigrants, assimilation is an option. Here, with very few exceptions, the children of immigrants grow up to be mainstream, assimilated Canadians. In europe, there's more of a catch-22 situation. Immigrants are criticised if they don't try to assimilate. However, even if they make every effort to adopt the culture of their new homes, they will never be accepted. My brother lives in Holland, and tells me that even a 3rd or 4th generation citizen will not be regarded as dutch if their skin is dark. Many people have told him that he is "the right kind of immigrant" (white) so the criticisms they have for dark skinned immigrants do not apply to him.

I say screw it....

The guys wants to wear a turbin on his head so what... but think about the danger involved in it. 2 cops are chasing a guy in a dark abandoned building. they get seperated for some reason and the uniformed (refering to his hat) shoots the turbin guy cuz it was dark and all he saw was a guy with a gun

wow, being outta town durimg the week makes for me missing some good stuff lol.

ok, As far as letting muslims or potential terrorists in the military...... I am not sure how much screening any mil;itary does. I think after 9-11 we may be a bit more careful here, however does anyone recall the American soldier that was either of Middle Eastern decent or a Musslim throwing granades into a tent of his fellow soldiers? This happened way back in the beginning of the assault of Irac.

As far as the Towel helmet issue. Let me just add that the bigg problem that radical Muslims have with us is they want to protect thier people from us changing thier beliefs and way of life.

One could turn that around and say that they are trying to change Canada's customs of uniforms and the ability as Silver has pointed out to recognize thier own. There seems to be a double standard there ...hmmm.

I bet that never would have floated here, in fact I bet even if it did, the towel helment would have got him killed. Just a thought....If someone with a towel around thier head had a gun on me or tried to detain me or anything else would have to worry about me ending his life period. I say this not because I hate Muslims or anyone from the Middle East, but because of what has happened and what is still happening.

But then there are the US military personnel of the Muslim faith that must have/ and are making things go smoothly via communicating between the Iraqi locals and the US boots on the ground... this valuable asset seems to offset one incident [horrid too] by a lone nutjob.

Regarding the turban issue, up here in Canada issues like this are discussed. Nothing confusing about the standards up here -though there are hiccups in the progressive way we try to accomodate our society, we are proud up here that it is trying to be a progressive nation. The fellow who got his wish to have a turban in the RCMP was by no means ranting for the right to do so at the time..... Furthermore the Brits never had an issue with Sikhs wearing turbans with the rest of their British uniform/weapons while the Sikhs fought valiantly in the Indian Mutiny, WW1 and WW2... so chalk one up for turban rights!

Yeah, I was wondering about your absence earlier on in this lively thread Dienamic ol' chum

yeah but in england they dont have the violence (not as many guns <I think>) that we do in the states... or prov. that border the US... like ontario etc...

Cops here are VERY trigger happy, shooting kids and their own on subways etc...

IF i get on the subway and a turban wearing mofo pulls a gun i will either:
A: shit myself
B: get him if I can! hell I figure im dead anyways!

uniforms are a dime a dozen up here anyone could pretend to be a police officer...

Just to clarify something here... Sikhs wear turbans, not muslims.

To say that it is a double standard for a Canadian sikh cop to want to wear a turban while radical muslims want to resist western influence is incorrect on several levels.

Radical mulsims want to live in a world where everyone is forced to conform to the rules they establish. Some of you seem to be suggesting the same thing... just with "our" rules, rathe thasn "theirs".

We live in a free society; one that respects minorities. That's supposed to be important to us. Forcing minorities to conform to "our ways" as revenge for the same behaviour by radical muslims is an assault on our freedoms, as well as being pointless.

Hey M.Stickman, you're a lot on "freesociety" stuff but always remember the freedom of one stops where the freedom of others start. Now you're saying that if many people need to pray 5 times a day we should provide them a place in our school for them to pray? Since i was a kid their always been crucifix in classroom, for catholic it's a kind of way to "protect" the place and the people inside. How come in the last years we had to take out all the crucifix from the classroom for respect to other religious belief?

Another thing in France they have done what we are doing here, accept everybody, but they start doing it long before us....now they have freakin problems with arab and algerian, not every arab and algerian but a lot of them .They regroup in the "cité" wich are big appartment block and they make their laws there they don't want to work, ok yeah some of them want to work but those who don't want make them a bad reputation so now they can't ghet a job! And you've seen what happen last summer there with the riot and all that!! Don't ask yourself why France did'nt get involved in the Afghan and Iraq conflict there's too much of them living in France!!

I'm not saying stop immigration , i say let the good people in, people that want to invest here,people that have professional expertise....well people that can be a plus to our society and with the money you make with thios, put it in the family to push your citizen to make more babys.

As for the turban in work environement, i say if every average people need to dress all the same for that work well the sikh would need to take off is turban,it's not like is going to die!! I'll give you an exemple in montreal port trucks driver have to put a safety helmet when they are within the port, well truck driver with turban(there's a lot of them) cannot put the helmet on cause of the turban, if an accident happens what would the insurance do. There's law and you have to comply with it, in the '50' and 60's religion where making the laws here but not anymore.People need to wake up i'm freakin tired of radical belief in religion....even if you pray everyday ....you will die!! Religion have been created cause people were afraid of the unknown and religion give them a unrationnal reason to explain the unknown.God is dead my friend's.

Muslim leader are on a mission to convert the world to their religion...i'll try to find the article.I've seen on tv a couples of month ago, a broadcast in Africa they were talking about school that have been build there by catholic missionaries.....but now for every catholic school wich teach ,math,writting,reading...there's like 3 coranic school finance by arab millionaire....and you know what you learn in a coranic school?? Yeah you learn the Coran ......that's all kid have chain to their legs and get the whip if they don't study....that's how you raise people to become human bomb!!

I tell you i don't want to take the chance to have people like that in my country, i know that some muslim are pretty good person. But they will need to make a clean up in their own religion, call the police when a Iman is making speech of hate and violence the samthing with believer with that kind of thought...and will kick them out!!

The only thing i want to say is that you're never too carefull, we have to be pro-active not retro-active i don't want my governement to take decision once radical believer have bombed my country or beheaded my fellow citizen. I want them to act before that! That's were my freedom start and where the freedom of radical believer ends!!!

Never forget that everything theoric is uthopic, governement wheter it's Democratic,socialist,communism don't exist...you think you live in democracy...lololol So to say that we are a free country is false...ok we got more liberty than other country but you're not totally free. To say that we have to tolerate everybody and that we love them all, and that nothing bad will happen ....that's uthopia in french is "Pensée Magique" magical thinking eveybody is good and kind!! Bull Shit!!

A]Regarding the classroom issue why are you saying its the Muslims doing... they made a demand for it from the local politicians... don't blame them if the local politicians give them the right and deny the right for crucifixes in a classroom... the Christian kids could demand a crucifix and bible thumping room!

B]What's "too many of them living in France"? It was ok when France drafted hundreds of thousands of North and West Africans to fight and die on French/European soil in WW1 and WW2 and various colonial Wars.

C]Unless your familiar with how immigration works there's no telling who IS good and who IS bad, let alone not knowing if they'll turn out to be bad apples later. The hard working middle class wanna-be immigrants have the hardest time of all getting let in unless sponsored. Just letting in Elite immigrants is plain cheesy and just asking to invite massive corruption.

D]Do you have a coronary seeing someone wearing a turban at work! Why do people need to take off everyday attire because it symbolises an association you've seemingly conjured up in your mind that panics you!? I had a teacher who was Sikh in England when I was 10. He was the humblest and 'coolest' teacher I and my chums remembered... just how he treated us like he was our uncle made him much loved -there was no fixations on turbans or mocking it. Personally I don't care if people want to go nuts in religion or cod or whatever as long as they aren't affecting my liberties. Folks believing in religion is more complex; I'll argue that rather than a fear of unknown [perhaps some born-agains fall in this category], more often than not religion is a learned habit.

E]Christianity is on the same mission too..... If you mean Islamic extremists, that's a different picture than a typical Muslim leader wishing to spread Islam. I have alot of Muslim friends and they pray but otherwise joke and worry the same as my non-muslim friends, and the muslim gals I know are educated, and many are wild+sexy [ok, so you can't see them in mini-skirts but gorgeous still] and ... the picture you paint of them as a massive generation of ticking time-bombs is wildly distorted. That's not the majority -which you know since you live in Montreal.

Z] I agree...

F]Where I disagree with you is you seemingly wanting to blow away entire nations to get a minority of psycopaths. That would include taking out families and friends of my peace loving Muslim friends I have in Canada that detest extremists / aka psycopaths that are bringing grief and destruction to their lands, not to mention their attempt to wipe out the Iraqi police recruits valiantly risking it all to bring some kind of stability in their ravaged country. So as you can see I'm not one to let somewhat inciteful commentary go unchallenged if it involves merging innocents with whackos along the lines of 'guilt by association'.

G]Democracy is what it is... everyone in it knows it's not perfect but its the 'best' system permitting liberties. A system with total liberties would likely resemble Anarchy! What Canada is doing generally seems to be is like when stepping in something squishy we look at what was stepped in and wipe it off in a rational manner rather than liking the feeling of it and dancing around in it mindlessly.

[quote name='Hellfighter' date='06/19/06 3:14am' post='114482'] [quote post='114390' date='06/18/06 3:44pm' name='Wotansvolk']
[/color]

[quote/] [color=#FFFF66]A]Regarding the classroom issue why are you saying its the Muslims doing... they made a demand for it from the local politicians... don't blame them if the local politicians give them the right and deny the right for crucifixes in a classroom... the Christian kids could demand a crucifix and bible thumping room!

B]What's "too many of them living in France"? It was ok when France drafted hundreds of thousands of North and West Africans to fight and die on French/European soil in WW1 and WW2 and various colonial Wars.

C]Unless your familiar with how immigration works there's no telling who IS good and who IS bad, let alone not knowing if they'll turn out to be bad apples later. The hard working middle class wanna-be immigrants have the hardest time of all getting let in unless sponsored. Just letting in Elite immigrants is plain cheesy and just asking to invite massive corruption.

D]Do you have a coronary seeing someone wearing a turban at work! Why do people need to take off everyday attire because it symbolises an association you've seemingly conjured up in your mind that panics you!? I had a teacher who was Sikh in England when I was 10. He was the humblest and 'coolest' teacher I and my chums remembered... just how he treated us like he was our uncle made him much loved -there was no fixations on turbans or mocking it. Personally I don't care if people want to go nuts in religion or cod or whatever as long as they aren't affecting my liberties. Folks believing in religion is more complex; I'll argue that rather than a fear of unknown [perhaps some born-agains fall in this category], more often than not religion is a learned habit.

E]Christianity is on the same mission too..... If you mean Islamic extremists, that's a different picture than a typical Muslim leader wishing to spread Islam. I have alot of Muslim friends and they pray but otherwise joke and worry the same as my non-muslim friends, and the muslim gals I know are educated, and many are wild+sexy [ok, so you can't see them in mini-skirts but gorgeous still] and ... the picture you paint of them as a massive generation of ticking time-bombs is wildly distorted. That's not the majority -which you know since you live in Montreal.

Z] I agree...

F]Where I disagree with you is you seemingly wanting to blow away entire nations to get a minority of psycopaths. That would include taking out families and friends of my peace loving Muslim friends I have in Canada that detest extremists / aka psycopaths that are bringing grief and destruction to their lands, not to mention their attempt to wipe out the Iraqi police recruits valiantly risking it all to bring some kind of stability in their ravaged country. So as you can see I'm not one to let somewhat inciteful commentary go unchallenged if it involves merging innocents with whackos along the lines of 'guilt by association'.

G]Democracy is what it is... everyone in it knows it's not perfect but its the 'best' system permitting liberties. A system with total liberties would likely resemble Anarchy! What Canada is doing generally seems to be is like when stepping in something squishy we look at what was stepped in and wipe it off in a rational manner rather than liking the feeling of it and dancing around in it mindlessly.
[/quote]

I like having good discussion like that chummy Hellfighter and your a pro at quoting!!lol

1st: I don't blame the muslim for taking out the crucifix from classroom i know it have nothing to do with them all i am saying is that we have taken out our religion from the school but we are bringing another religion in those same school!|

2nd: I have nothing against people wearing turban i'm saying in the port what would happen if one of them got it on the head by something....what will happen with insurance will they get a favor treatment?

Ok for point B i don't know enough about that history ...but what i know is that they have a lot of problem with arab and algerian!

3rd: Yeah christian were doing the same thing years ago! As for the time bomb kids it's in africa you should have seen that broadcast it was crazy it's total brainwashing!

I'll continue later have to get back to work i'll try to find that broadcast for you!
C ya buddy!!

Geezus!!! I'm trying hard to bore you into submission mon chum... you're a tough cookie lol
Arab/Algerian>north Africa; many of whose vets were in the Fench Army at the times I mentioned. I have no sympathy for anyone trying to smash away at a progressive free thinking society regardless if they are from arab/radical muslim/neo christian...no-one... so I'm all in favour of authorities going ballistic to root out the s--t disturber ring leaders but not cast a dragnet that sweeps up innocents and possibly provokes their alienation and thus be potential trouble later on..
I don't doubt you on point 3.... Those poor kids getting messed up like that.

Here's some link about those Koranic school called Madrasa:

http://islam-watch.org/SujitDas/Madrasa.htm

Madrasa paid by saudis:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004761.php

Beasts like that aren't teachers... they are megalomaniacs and psycopaths masquerading as on a 'just' mission. The more followers they brainwash, the more absolute power is yielded to them -ugly pyramid scheme of sorts. 'Sharia' is utter evil to me and I'm all for beating its ugly head into guacemole wherever its raised, yes- even here too Wot .

Okay, to go down a similar list as Hell (just assume the top one is A and so forth):

First off, having a seperate room for praying to a non-christian diety is not in anyway the same as having latin crosses in every classroom. If they requested a seperate area, and were then granted one, than so to should catholics. If they deny you that, you have an issue, but otherwise, they are different issues.

No opinion, Canada didn't get involved in Iraq either. (The WMDs are still have their pictures on milk cartons.)

I'm sure the government would love to here your suggestions on how to screen the good people from the bad ones. They already screen for people who first off have money, then education, then relatives already in the country.

Most major religions are on a quest to convery people to their faith. Christianity is probably the worst violator.

I really don't like how you said, "I know that some muslims are pretty good..." I think it should go more like, "I know that nearly all muslims are pretty good..." Otherwise, yeah, i agree, cut off the head and the beast will die. (the beast in this case being extremist, hate, and terrorism)

How do you want them to react? Invade more countries? Perhaps everywhere but Saudi Arabia? Maybe just from Egypt, north to Russia, and east to China? (Cause china has 3 billion people) Your above point actually kind of fits here.

Yeah, you're right, you can't love everyone. But you can't just assume, because someones skin has a little more pigment, they are a threat. Also, no shit we're not totally free. If we we're totally free, how the fuck do you think anything would function. Yeah i can do whatever the hell i want, so i want to go and steal a computer out of the local school. Its common sense, but we are as close to freedom as there can be in a society.

You should'nt say christianity is the worst violator but "was".

My point of saying that your not free is in response of someone saying that we are in a free country.....i'll repeat your freedom end were the freedom of others start.

There is some soldier in Iraq it havent been made official and there's not a lot of them! And it might be an error to always work against the us decision like the liberal party have been doing! Don't forget US represent a big part of our exportation.

I don't know enough muslim to say nearly all of them are good, from what i see in Iraq good muslim don't help military or police by telling them were radical believer are hiding!

Did i ever talked about invading country??? No­.I talked about preventing in our own country. The point is i don't like getting political refugee....you have to bring something to canada to be accept i don't care if you have put yourself in a dangerous position in your own country!!

LOL yeah i know the definition af anarchy boy......read my first point right here for the explanation of why i said that!
I hate to have to explain myself in english i'm missing words lol!!
But i try my best. Don't try to make me look like a racist guy i'm not racist but i'm very concern of the safety of my country....did you know that every year we lose some temporary immigrant in the nature? they just disapear!

Cya my Chummy Oh You!!!

He never said you were a racist... several of your points seem radical and not focused on violators and with using draconian tactics that unfairly 'label' others as undesirable to be potential citizens.
No you don't HAVE to bring something into Canada to be accepted... Foremost is they'll show the potential to be a very good citizen. > its not all about being rich, or even have a great job - many highly skilled immigants will tell you they have to wait years before they can pursue their former high level jobs since they must re-do exams and sometimes start once again from the bottom up.
Political refugees show outside of our comparably comfortable lifestyle in Canada, people in other horrible parts of the world are bravely standing up for their basic human rights. Maybe you don't care about it, but because our society generally does care, countless numbers of foreigners fleeing torture or execution merely for politically speaking against their government's values are shown there is hope and safety somewhere!
God bless them for resisting their evil governments oppression and how they risked their lives or a long stay in a horrid jail in order to start the seeds of civilised living in their society and/or bravely attempt to live in some small way how we in Our Free country enjoy and take it for granted.

There are a few 'democratic' nations that have/do take in former dictators seeking refuge because they have stolen fortunes to make them 'desirable'. No, for me, I love that our country is doing the right thing in accepting political refugees who bring only the shirts on their back and broken dreams of freedom in their place of birth.

It's wimpy to say we should 'go along' with the US policy simply because they our our economic cousins.
Everyone here has the freedom to say they like or don't like another countries policy. Take a look at the American polls>>> Less than 40% of Americans approve with Bush's current role as President. In other words don't think all Americans are backing the President or how he handled post-fall-of-Baghdad Iraq. He maybe the US President but that doesn't mean what he and his neo-con buddies are currently doing is what the entire United States believe in.

My country = Our country.... other citizens here have their own version of how our society can function without alienating ourselves. Globally Canada is much respected and envied BECAUSE of our policy of fair inclusion across a broad spectrum of people. You can't define where 'our freedom begins'> that's solely your idea. My idea of freedom involves a progression of human thinking and sharing that idea globally not just within our borders and to those with enough $$$ to get in....

As for informants... you can bet that's what's keeping northern and southern Iraq generally safe. The people there generally trust each other and are largely on good terms with the security forces in those zones- therefore the fear of reprisals is very low for informing. Central Iraq is the Insugency fortress. Informing must be near-suicidal if not proceeded with fully secure and smartly. There is the very real risk of losing your entire family if you are found out to be an informant. It must be very horrible since the Iraqis in that area would like nothing better than to rat out the bombers that are blowing up dozens of their friends and family each week. Many Iraqis are very brave and get a few insurgents taken out through giving valued information but new terrorists come in fast, so you must assume there is a general mentality of complying won't change the status quo and the risk is too great when there is obviously not the comfort of knowing you can feel safe going to bed at night after informing. We can't compare our system to theirs and think such decisions seem logical. It'd be nice if they had a anonymous phoneline like Crimestoppers or America's Most Wanted but its more complicated than that, isn't it, mon chum ?

Yeah i might seem radical .....i might be.....maybe because i'm fed up with some immigrant complaining about our system like i'm fed up with the freakin B.S how do you call that....wellfare people living on the arm of the rest of the working people(wich most of them are white and what we could call a pure whole Quebecer "french translation". I'm tired of people who loves everybody and think that everybody are good people. We are living in a great country and yes we have more freedom than a lot of other country but everything is not pink and beautiful there's some shit going around and people have to start talking about it!

Well as for the thing about our economics cousin....i don't like a lot bush either....i'm working in the lumber business so i guess you know the issue about lumber taxing us for stupid reason! But when it comes tooo the anti-missile project.....why did we not join them??

i'm not against immigration.....we need it due to our inability(??) to make kids of our own and it can bring new expertise, but if i ever hear about a political refugee talking against our system....man i'll be so pissed off would'nt you???

Oh yeah i care about other people in other part of the world espacially children, i think a kid should play not work....as for the adult they can defend themselve.

As for the informants ....it's true it's not easy!!

Oh the hell with that i have expose my point...can judge me on it or respect it as for me i've heard you guys and i agree with some of your point!

Chummy Hell and Oh You i liked that discussion but now it's going in circle.

C ya on battlefield.....come and kick my ass!! LoL

I skipped over most of this but got the drift

if you want to pray, pray
if you want to convert, do so peacefully
if you want to wear a turbin, wear it when ur not in uniform

if you think you need to be treated different for any reason your a stupid fuck
make your own accomidations, make it so others dont have to deal with W/E bullshit you tie yourself up with!

if your god dont forgive you for taking off the towel to go to work then your a dumbass! DONT TRY AND GET THAT JOB!


if you believe that ppl are kind, and nice, and nice ppl finish first? please tell me what reality you live in or pass the pills!

I pretty agree whit what Silver says...you have a hard way of saying things but.....i agree!

I'm not spending my short timeshare on Earth dwelling on the idea on a race to see if 'nice guys' finishes first or last... In MY reality nice people aren't concerned about that either-> they prefer sharing and therefore you can bet they aren't paranoid or fatalistic not to mention getting steamed about world chaos happening if a government sees no credible reason after MUCH discussion why a turban can't replace a standard helmet for the purposes of his sincere religious beliefs- like I mentioned before, the Brits had no problem at all with Sikhs wearing turbans along with their issued British uniforms and weapons while numerous Sikh regiments fought and died in British military service for a couple of hundred years. Life is short and Things change... its called progress sometimes. The RCMP is still as much an Elite Law Enforcement contingent as ever since the first turban was introduced.

Nothing wrong with getting upset/angry with whiner statements about the system from immigrants> its their right. Non-immigrants/citizens whine too remember.
You'll get no argument from me about immigrants needing to assimilate in society and not be self cloistered. Of course they're free not to do so, but for me that doesn't make for a healthy society. That being said, I have no problem with them wanting to keep up former home cultural activities as long as they assimilate too.

You want to see welfare corruption, you should've been around in the 80s. Now, the system is much under control so let's not get into the immigarnts burdening the system deal> generally they'll be contributing invaluably to the sysyem. Not to mention offset the upcoming aging population problem in the future. As much as Montreal and Quebec city is much loved by Canuck visitors Wotan mon chum, you should live outside of Quebec [in Canada] to hear how not just a few anti-Quebecer Canadians have radical views of where they'd like to see Quebec go along with every person in Quebec - then you'll get a feel for how biased opinions beat up an entire group of people unfairly and crazily.
Yup, I'm done too... cya in the wargrounds.

Hell, i know i am probably wrong, but seeing how we just did a 2 week "unit" on the topic of immigration in Canada in my Social Studies class, i'd thought i'd throw this out there. (Ok, the textbooks are 12 years old, so who knows )

Basically, we learned that there are 3 main ways to come to Canada as an immigrant. They are, 1, with a sponsor, which has to be a close relative, no further than grandfather/mother or aunt/uncle or something like that. 2, as an independant, which is most common when the potential immigrant has an education, or money to invest. The 3rd is as a Refugee, which is basically, if you fear returning to your country for any reason.

On the whole, uniforms and religous attire. I can see both points. It is a very strong part of many religions, and if a turban is demanded to be removed, so to should any crosses on chains, or such symbols. Because they are not standard issue either.

But on the other hand, if a policy on dress is in place, you should not expect to be allowed to change it because of your beliefs.



Can they, could you? Honestly, thinlk about it, could you fend for yourself in the conditions they must try to survive in? Can you even imagine what they would have to go through. Sure, we all want to save those poor little kids on the Christian Children's Fund commercials, but we can't just say, sorry anybody over 30, go fuck yourself, can we?

You all signed off on the discussion, but i still gotta get some input in this.

Great discussion, i really enjoy this kind of thing.

Hope to see you in my iron sights soon!

Yes sir, it was a great discussion and nice getting a game with you on Cassino last night, and my vent was working

On point 1 I'm very familiar with how folks really can get in and get citizenship... the average person needs a sponsor otherwise its the very rich or very destitute that are favoured. Though some years ago, my folks [and me] were rejected on the first try into Canada from the UK with relatives to sponsor too! 2nd time we made it. And I do know that type of preferential order is still in place.

On point 2, it's already happened [1989]. Life goes on and things like laws and attitudes will always change... usually in the sake of progress in spite of traditional opposition. So I'm not too surprised when people can't accept even the slighter social modifications.. its to be expected.
To quote the Borg, "resistance is futile" .

Now I'm done!

I have to say something about that...Quebecer have fought the english canadian and we have acquired our "freedom". You seem to know a lot about history in foreign country chummy, but o you know the story of french canadian in quebec in the '50's and 60's ??? We fopught cause we were handle like cattle by the english canadian who owned all the company in quebec that's where the unions were founded. I don't give a damn about English Canadian that hate French canadian.....and yeah that's a radical opinion.....cause my grand father lived in poverty, was exploited and treated like s***t by those english canadian. So they can like my b**t and s**k on my balls!!! That's one of the reason i don't want my people to be assimilated by others, so they can remember what their ancestor did for them, you need to remember not to do the same error again!!

Ok now that's all i had to say i'll try to hold back my passion and not post again here!lol
Cya boyz and gurlz!!!

Important for me to add Wotan my buddy;
Believe it or not, I'm with the Quebecers wanting to retain their identity mon chum Wotan. I don't think that's radical at all... it's very noble. I'm very aware the how Quebec suffered for hundreds of years under Brit rule, and how other nations/societies [notably the Acadians] were trod on for the sake of the Empire. I lived outside of Quebec most of my life and heard [and still hear] the ugly statements some people make about Quebec and it disgusts me... most of them have never even travelled to Quebec .

So just know Wotan, whenever I do hear a stuck-up anglo start bashing Quebec, I give them a very good blasting and reality check.

And oh yeah i say i don't want to forget my roots but i don't won't others that come here to forget their roots either and i would like to see more native indian from canada remembering their roots, maybe their would be less problem in their community.

Just a little question Hell what do you think about the fact that some Quebecers want the independance of Quebec?? I know it's hard to give a short answer on that question but i just want to know your opinion!

I don't want to highjack the thread though!!lol

LOL, It's great to end this thread on a similar belief
Its up for Quebecers to decide in my opinion. Quebecers built the foundations of its cities as we know them and had a beautiful relationship with Natives before the Brits got in. Personally I think a 51% majority is not the best idea for a split. I'm more for a very clear margin like 75-80%- I know that's radical, but in my opinion that would leave no room for future arguments on the subject. I'd like to see Quebec with Canada. It teaches the rest of Canada[and the world] about how different societies can live together compared to how in other countries similar differences are very violent... that's why I tell anti-Quebecers to get lost. My work relates to the tourism industry and the tourists love it all over Quebec, and they keep coming back year after year.

I agree with what you say chummy Hell!!

I believe that if there was a strong enough majority, 75% or up, as you said Hell, then sure, seperate. But the my feelings are, your either Canadian, or your not. So if you seperate, you need to mint your own money and generate your own army. There should also be a program put into place to pay back the millions in federal tax dollars spent in Quebec.

Now this certainly doesn't mean that you should lose your french heritage, but seperation isn't the answer.

Yes oh you i'm canadian but first of all i'm quebecer!
As for the tax i'm sorry but nothing would go back to canada!LOL
We are paying federal tax here too,it's not quebec that cost money to the federal governement, it's more the maritime. You know that during the last referendum for separation the governement of Canada showed is trust in Quebecer....they sent a big majority of the jet and copter from the base of bagotville to... i don't remember either if it was in ontario or in the USA in case the referendum go through!! Not to talk about the money given to people from all over canada to come an manifest in Quebec .....talk to me about nice and clean democracy!!lol

I agree with you on one point 51% is not enough!!

Look like i won't stop posting here now.lololol

As for our army i'm not to scared about that we have a couple of soldier in Quebec!! And why don't use the US dollar!!lol

Don't party too hard on Jean-Baptiste day Wotan!!! .... nah, Impossible>forget that-> GO CRAZY!!! I hope you have a blast Wotan

For shure Chummy Hell i'll be drinking beer on Plaine d'abrahm where my french ancestor lost their fight against those Brits invaders. I'll be drinking in their memory..... i'll try to get some pics for you guys the quantity of people their is amazing and half of those people will be drunk by 11:00 pm.LOL

Hope you will be celebrating too Helly it's your party too buddy!!!

Cheers to you guys!!

Yup, I'll be out there !

First..................................

OK, I am out of town all week and I dare say that I cannot follow all the long posts lol. Yes Hell my man, you tactics worked great on the wrong guy lmao. I just want to get back to the topic that was started here. This is why I quoted Silver. I have to admit it, Silver and I think alot alike. It is not unreasonable to assume that if you want to become a cop, you would want hold the long held tradition of uniform with resect and honor. I know it means a hell of a lot to all the cops and firemen I know. In my eyes, and probably anyone in uniform here period. Hell, call Americans old fashion or even hard headed, but never....I mean never walk into any watering whole full of cops or firemen just to name a couple and talk of wearing a turban with your uniform. Well, not until you are sure your medical insurance is paid up.

Next...................................

America has seperated Church and State.....even prohibiting it's own citizens from praying in school, city or state offices etc. You here about this here and there involving our own people. Should it not be expected that anyone that wants to take advantage of our educational process do the same? I think this issue is just stupid. It is our rules....if you don't want to follow them, go to school some place else.

Finally................................

I just want to point out that dumb shit of an American kid that either stole something of defaced property or some shit and was publically beaten in Bancock. America allowed that because it was the laws and customs of that land. Should we not expect the same thing here? I will close in saying Silver said it best, except he did not say what I expected he would towards the end and is this; This is America and in Hell's case Canada. Love it or leave it. We have rules get over it or get a swift iron toed boot up the ass on your way to deportation.

DieNamic out till next weekend lol....

['Silver']

if you want to pray, pray
if you want to convert, do so peacefully
if you want to wear a turbin, wear it when ur not in uniform

if you think you need to be treated different for any reason your a stupid fuck
make your own accomidations, make it so others dont have to deal with W/E bullshit you tie yourself up with!

if your god dont forgive you for taking off the towel to go to work then your a dumbass! DONT TRY AND GET THAT JOB!


if you believe that ppl are kind, and nice, and nice ppl finish first? please tell me what reality you live in or pass the pills! [/quote]

Finally................................

I just want to point out that dumb shit of an American kid that either stole something of defaced property or some shit and was publically beaten in Bancock. America allowed that because it was the laws and customs of that land. Should we not expect the same thing here? I will close in saying Silver said it best, except he did not say what I expected he would towards the end and is this; This is America and in Hell's case Canada. Love it or leave it. We have rules get over it or get a swift iron toed boot up the ass on your way to deportation.

DieNamic out till next weekend lol....

[/quote]

Don't think I could have said it better!!!!!!!!!!! I CONCUR

Oh, I get it. don't slam Quebec, but take a backhanded slap at the Maritimes. Yep, there's always someone else to hate and blame, isn't there?

MoD...one of those lowly "maritimers" that are the problem.

Geez man sorry if i offend you the point is that in the maritime you have lost a lot of money in the fishing crisis, also "chômage"(what's the word for this in english?) are the highest in maritime quebec is not far behind though![url="http://www.immigrer.com/chomage.html"]
http://www.immigrer.com/chomage.html[/url]
That was my point and it's a fact,now i'm looking further to find how much money maritimes bring in their chest from exportation.

Wich province are you from?

C ya!

To say not to let people into the army until they are racialy screened is outrageous, the individual didnt cause any problems when he was in the army and quite frankly I dont care what races or religious groups want to join our army, it beats the hell out of conscription.