The Roman Empire was inarguably the greatest civilization of antiquity.It took nearly a thousand years for the world to recover from the fall of the Roman Civilization.A fall that is traditionally dated A.D.476.The fall occurred for many reasons,but most of the direct blame lies in the migration and toleration of hostile Germanic Tribes out of Eastern Europe.These tribes penetrated the unsecured borders of the Roman Empire and settled deep within Roman lands.Over time,since the Romans felt that they could not successfully boot these invaders out,the Tribes were allowed to stay in the Empire.Many even joined the Roman Army and were given the authority (not always officially) to enforce their own laws and preserve their seperate cultures,and for a large part did not assimilate into the greater Roman Culture.By A.D.476,The Western half of the Empire was overrun by various Eastern Tribes and the land was Roman in name only.In that year,one of these Tribes,the Visigoths,sacked the Eternal City of Rome,a city which had not been touched by outside invaders for 800 years.Through there was not much left of the Western Empire by that point,it is the fall of the City of Rome to the Visigoths that has traditionally symbolized the destruction of the once great Roman Empire.In the end,the greatest civilization know to man was brought down by illegal immigrants that were granted amnesty.

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Thats funny, wasnt it the Gauls that sack Rome?

So I heard on the History channel...

so im gona guess you think the same will happen to the u.s of a

Wow, I could go on and on. But, to get to the point, the fall of the empire was due to many complex issues that went unresolved, in some cases for centuries.

The US and Canada was built on the backs of immigrants, illegal and otherwise. Even my forefathers who fought in the american revolution were 'immigrants' and ultimately 'refugees' (evil as they were). If you look back in your own family tree I guarantee you are offspring of immigrants of "some description", good chances in the last 3-4 generations. You know what a WOP is don't you?

Blame the illegal immigrants. Yup, that guy make $2 an hour picking tomatoes, is the problem. No, its the guy that was a doctor in some other country, that is now working as a cabbie, stealing all those good cab driving jobs from American Doctors.

What I mean to say is fix the problems, don't blame the immigrants.

The issue is not immigrants, but illegal immigrants. Supporters of amensty say that they are paying Social Security taxes that they will never receive. However, in order to pay SS tax, one must have a SS number. How do you get one? You can't if your not a citizen, you either have to steal it, or buy one that is forged.



There are some 400,000 illegals in our prisons. Are these the type of immigrants we want coming into the United States? The Democrates and Republicans believe that if they don't suck up to the illegals, then they will be branded as the party that is against immigration and will ultimately loose the vote power to stay in power. But what are the long term effects to the USA?

coming from a floridian ,i have no problem with anyone moving here to have and pursue a greater life,i only wish everyone else pays their own way. right now ,in south florida , because we are so pc ,theres like 40 to 60 kids to a classroom and probably half are tax payers. i know i know ,the canadians get taxed more than we do BUT... my entire tax bill is mostly to schools (%90) and between my tax bill and low insurance ,these payments are more than my mortgage which is the reason for the stall in the real estate market here,not rates,not prices.



the fact is half the people are paying for all the services of the illegals . am i happy that they get full health care ,schooling ,language class , food stamps , money and free rent???? no ,especially when i make an above avrage salary and am barely afloat. i dont want my kid going to a public school here because imo they look like prisons and private schools start at $21,000. a year and you still have to teach in two languages. oh ,and get this ... now there seems to be a tax crisis so all services will be cut soon ,amongst these cuts are teachers,city workers ,police,fireman and emts , which means that im working my ass off for less police protection a shitty education for my kid and if i get hurt ill be lucky to get an ambulance.



sorry if i seem irate but i currently have all my properties for sale to move to a more stable state.this is a real problem and until you live in an area that is %40 illegal immagrants you really wouldnt see it.florida is now starting to get national attention as its really getting tuff here , i could only imagine what california is like.

Some help, I'm not sure you're fully understanding the issues that some of have to deal with on the illegal immigration issue. I'm not against immigration at all, just the illegal immigrants. The immigrants that helped build this great country assymilated to the culture and took pride in their new start in the US. The ones that come here now just abuse and trash everything. So I guess the illegals here aren't responsible for the crime, the drugs, the gangs? I guess MS-13 (which is very active in my area) are really some rich white boys? So when my cousin had her baby, she was billed $28,000 when she left but the girl she shared a room with got it all for free. Who pays for her? The US taxpayer. That's why we're a bit pissed off. We're paying so illegal immigrants can get a free ride. They don't pay taxes, they don't contribute... well, yes, they can pick fruit and clean. Yes, I feel bad that there are some that are just trying to better their lives and family... but most of them in my area are just crooks that refuse to speak english. They cut up a little girl the other day, it was really sad. The police in the area are almost helpless cause they have no records of these people so it's hard to arrest them w/out ICE training. Bah, I could go on and on.

My solution, let them come in but take away all the free stuff and... and, if the parents are undocumented, then the new baby is too. None of this "born in America and you're an instant citizen" anymore. This will encourage them to contribute and become a part of our society instead of a burden.

Just come up here to Canada and get free health care, might as well everyone in the world does.

And my family tree is british who with the french came over here to Canada.



And to me, I think Canada should change there name to The New UN

please dont buy into the fact "they all pick cotton,fruit and do labor jobs that no one wants either,theres alot of jobs these guys are doing such as waiters (which is getting cracked down on) landscapers ,roofers ,drywall , concrete etc and down here that is huuuuge money ,huge. infact i dont know of many lettuce fields in florida ,hehe. seriously ,dont make them pay a back bill ,get them registered and and get them paying and if you dont have a job ,no benefits !

I can tell you in my area they are probably at least 20% maybe as much as 35-40% (no one knows) and as UNDEAD says there are lots of salt of the earth people here who cannot get the jobs they had roofing, construction, etc. etc. because the contractor can hire two Hispanics for what he had to pay Bubba. No doubt there's a reason the contractor hires them. They work HARD and cheap. Perhaps some of those people who lose those jobs will learn that first part. As it stands it puts another person out of work and you and I paying for their benefits etc. So problem compounded. Don't know the answer but I can assure you our government officials have long stopped trying to do what was right for us. On both sides it's about power and control. Screw the people.

I'm not American, so correct this if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be the point of the Amnesty? To make them "legal" so they can be accounted for and pay their taxes, and claim their legit benefits?

Anyway, I live in a part of Canada that is pretty much isolated from all this stuff. White and Christian sums up about 99+% of the population. So I admit, I don't know what it's like. I do know that it is nice that you'll never meet anyone who doesn't understand the language perfectly.

check out www.infowars.com,this is Alex Jones web site or michal
savage.com thanks, the war is on.

Just to add to it all though, remember how complex this all is. So Bubba loses his job, two Mexican's work hard and cheap, and "Frank" gets the addition to his house built for $20,000 less, while "Ralph", the owner of the contracting company also scoops up and extra $5,000 profit for every home he builds.

Probably no one here is a "Mexican", a few here might be "Bubba's", many are "Frank's" (people looking for a cheap house or cheap renovations), and there may even be a "Ralph" or two. Point is, the winners and losers in tis game are varied and complex.

alright ,forget what youve seen and heard about the mexicans in califoria who work on lettuce fields .



now think of florida,lousiana , texas etc.. who after hurricanes didnt have enough blue cllar workers to go around so unlicensed illegal aliens are making but loads of money. i say get em all registered so they can contribute but because half the country doesnt have this problem ,for instance nebraska these laws are not getting into place.



another thing i found very interesting and was one of the problems for all of us down here after the hurricanse was the fact that ,if your a builder your were ALLOWED legally to have a certain percentage of imagrants to work for you,they call it helping. let me give you a for instance, the builder who was repairing my home had a work force of 41 illegal imagrants that were allowed to come here and given green cards ,TAX FREE, to work for this company or any of the other builders ,theres 1000s of builders . right after wilma ,we didnt get any federal aid because they called it a cat 1 (even though winds were in the 120s) and a law was passed about the illegal workers ,so they werent able to work for these companies so everyone was crippled down here with no power or aid and alot of companies with a quater of their staff for awhile , i still see blue tarps on roofs today. the thing is ,all the illegals are still here though and formed their own companies (handyman) services and are sooo busy they dont even take calls.

the problem is if they didnt have this retarded program that basicly lets the builder get a bunch of slaves to save money and had normal workers it wouldnt have been half as bad and everyone wouldve made a bunch of money.even though a builder STATES he has 41 illegals doesnt mean he doesnt have 120 .



the main problem with non tax payers is this --schooling . the city can only afford to pay for a certain amount of teachers but theres more than 30 kids to a class and most dont speak the language or barley (there not going to deny anyone school right?) so it slows down all the other kids and it has put florida amongst the worst in the country in test scoring. question,have you every tried to controll 35 kids at once? would you do it for 30 a year?



second is health care , most cant even afford to have it but they get full benefits. i for one am not against anyone coming here to work,hell im a%100 irish and my family came here off the boat . the irish are picture perfect to the modern day illegal problem except our government had programs to get them working so they could pay taxes.

and the answer to your question mod is if they are not licensed and not aquiring permits the work isnt getting done right,thus the tax payer is the victim because theres codes here now for anything built because of these storms and all the half ass work comes down every hurricane and the insurance cos have to put money out for it again.

An old friend of mine was visiting from Boston a few weeks ago and told me that the illegal immigration up there is all Irish. He said you can't even get through certain parts of town because of them.

Good story;

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue. Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tiles, the chairs, the table... everywhere.

Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be... quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now let's see... our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen. Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor; your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English; Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

no way an invisble line is going to stop someone from a better life, or the hope of one. What makes them want to come to America? All I have seen is pointing fingers and blaming when the real problem is millions of 'mexicans' among others are living in squaller conditions and have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to loose.

Americans can't EVEN get Americans to clean up after a disaster, and the illegals/immigrants see this as the opportunity to work and provide food their family. There-in lies the disparity of the situation and the problem.

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Pez, the fact your cousin didn't have the health insurance she needed has nothing to do with providing healthcare to someone else, but this somehow an illegal immigration problem? I just don't understand the connection frankly.
*/

What is the real demographic of illegal immigrants? How do they contribute, what role do they play in society? What percentage have been given a real opportunity at education or to come clean, or even treated fairly by prospective employers, what percentage were incarcerated for gang related activity? What percentage go without any dental or medial care? You know I bet 90% if offered would JUMP at the opportunity to become citizens and are hard working good people like the rest of us.

Instead of trying to understand and solve the problem all that has been done is the demonification of them, ALL of them unfairly. Sounds like persecution to me. I AM NOT defending those that abuse the system or those that don't stand up like men.

I grasp the situation to a certain degree, I just suggested that you look to find solutions. This is no different that other mass migrations of other peoples. I don't know all the details of what is happening in southern florida... but I can tell you that my buddies kid goes to school in toronto. In her school in the paper recently documented that over 57 nationalities were represented in that school! And we are not without our issues as well.

I never said she didn't have health insurance. She did have insurance. Seriously, do you just have some issues with Americans or something? I don't understand your angle at all. You don't live here, you don't understand the problems, all these people that do live in the US are posting about the issues... yet, you still seem to think that it's wrong. I don't think anyone here is against immigration. Just do it right and have everyone contribute. There are just too many undocumented people in the US right now that are abusing the system or could possibly be terrorists for all we know. It's wrong, I blame the US, Mexican, and a few other governments for this. They know it's a problem yet they continue to ignore it. Do you know if I went to Mexico, I wouldn't get any of the stuff that these people are getting when they come here. It's messed up, but Mexico loves it cause they get rid of their lower class... then the lower class sends money back to Mexico to boost their economy. But... wow, I'm probably just making all this up and you know what's really happening.

well said . to sh ,i am not against people coming here in anyway,infact i have a few very good friends who are from south amarica and took the right steps to become citizens and let me tell you ,its a hell of a long road for them and i respect that . i can even give two shits if they marry into the country because atleast their registered and paying taxes. i too blame the governments as well and alot of these illegals would be citizens if it were not for 9/11 . i dont think that theres any solution to the problem with the way the governments are handling the situation ,bush seems to want back taxes and thats ridiculous. the weird thing is that while they are so busy trying to get here , corps and rich buissnessmen ,worldwide , are buying up hundreds of thousands of acres of land in south amarica and mexico , soon their country wont be their country anymore .

for me, i don't care as long as they go through the process of becoming legal. My problem is that if you decide to move to another country, shouldn't you learn there language. Yes, people do speak english in just about every country but if i move to france, im going to learn how to speak french, thats there language. Thats for some reason just bothers me. How do you move someplace and not learn the language?

maybe i should start throwing out some jokes, we'll get this thread going with hate posts.lol.

i with pez on this one we offer to much and get little in return sept high tax rate and people who dont speak english.

Immigrants and illegals were persecuted by the statements in this thread, and I was shocked and am a little embarrassed! My perspective was different, probably because of how many immigrants and illegals live within an hour of where I do. I don't know...

The perspective that ONLY "Americans" would understand illegal immigration is a limited perspective. You need to know that every advantaged (G8 at least) nation in the world has this very problem and it is VERY significant. Canada, UK, France, Germany on and on... not to even look at the issues worldwide with mass migrations...

My perspective from watching the last 25 years (when I have been old enough to understand what was happening) in Canada is for one to tolerate, and look for solutions (maybe tough ones that take some time) and accept the situation.

Too much time pointing fingers rather than look at the reality of the situation is VERY dangerous. I understand more of the problem there, I honestly appreciate that. I don't necessarily agree with your points of view though, mostly because I think you yanks are a bit fanatical, for a conservative Canadian guy, anyway I'll move along...

WTF is with the "no maple Leaf" avatar? Is that a knock agains t Canadians? Would it be OK if I get one with an American flag with an "X" through it? Will that be cool?

just a joke picture for friends from canada

I think the issue for me is that I have been cool about illegals in the past because they were looking to better themselves. Now, after it's blown up around me, I'm seeing that they don't give a shit and are just destroying what's good in my city/county. I'm active in stopping companies from hiring them at the multi-billion dollar work site they built for the illegals. I'm politically active w/my voice, letters, and emails about the issue. It really pisses me off when they hold rallies and wave the Mexican flags while burning the US flags and then they call me a nazi. WTF? I'm not about hate. I just don't want the crime, graffiti, and everything else that came along w/the bad seeds when they showed up.

I understand that there are many other countries and nations that are dealing w/the problem as well, but most of them have acts to control the matters. Our government turns a blind eye to this problem like it doesn't exsist cause they want to get re-elected. Seriously, if suddenly a few million Brazilians showed up in Canada, changed your language, made it unsafe for your children to even attend school, and then drove up your taxes... would you still feel the same way Some Help? I guess overall, I'm concerned for normal citizens rights and my wallet size. If they were here, actually contributing, I wouldn't have a huge issue with it. And don't forget, they've already broken our laws getting over here... they are illegal. Why is that okay? It's okay for Jorge to be here but not Mohammed?

Pez for wanting our government to take action and enforce our laws you get labeled a racist bigot. I have no problem with ppl bettering themselves. I do have a problem when I have to pay for it. I may have told this before but here goes anyway... I live in the second largest poultry producing county in the nation. A friend of mine is the sales manager of one of the plants and while he wouldnt tell me the percentage of illegals he did say that it's not uncommon for Jorge to show up and work with papers etc. for 6 months, leave for a few weeks, and Jose show up using the same papers etc. He knows they are fakes but it's not his place to be a forgery expert. We're covered up by them and like you our schools are bursting at the seams. Not to mention my car insurance is the highest in the state due to the uninsured motorists who by and large are you guessed it Illegals. We have to do something about it. Saying that it must be dealt with does not make us fanatics. It makes us human. I'm not asking for mass deportation. I'm asking for my country to enforce the laws in place which are there to protect me and my family..... I don't think that's unreasonable.

cosigned

Pez,

I am completely with you on this issue.

IMNSHO; If you come to this country or any other, and strive to become a citizen of said country, then I have no problem with immigrants.



One of the hardest working guys I know is originally from Croatia.He,his wife and daughters left as the tanks rolled down their street, and never looked back. a few years ago, he took the citizenship test and passed 100%. But he does not understand a great deal of english, so it is hard for him. He's 50 something years old, so learning a new language is harder for him, but he knows German, and so a coworker and I communicate with him that way when all else fails. but he works 40+ at our printshop, and then goes home and works at the print shop he has set up in his garage at night and on weekends.



My own ancestors came here from Germany and Denmark, and disavowed any alleigance to the Kaiser or the King of Denmark. If you are willing to come here -or anywhere- and bust your butt like everyone else and follow the rules? I've got nary a problem with you. But if you sneak in, abuse the system, and cause trouble? Hit the bricks pal, I've got no use for you.

Yeah man, eastern Europeans have a uber strong work ethic.

I wonder; what happened to the Great American work ethic? Fer instance; My Grandfather found work during the depression shoveling coal into the furnaces at U.S. Steel. Noone else wanted the position because everyone else there was African American, but he realized that whatever it was, it put food on his table, and thats all that mattered. Now people bitch and whine over the smallest of slights, have we really become that soft???

Everyone seems to be walking around the larger issue here. The politicians don't care about the illegals lively hood, their children or anything except from the standpoint that they can use them to gain political power. The Democrats are looking at them as a voting base, and the Republicans are scared that if they oppose it then it will alienate them ( no pun intended ), from voting Republican. What it comes down to is that our goverment representitives are voting for amnesty and allowing the promotion of illegal immigration for all the wrong reasons.

But Ghost, Politicians not caring is nothing new; thats the way its been for years! They bow down and kiss anyones butt that will vote for them, and never follow thru when it comes time to pay the proverbial tab. Repuiblican or democrat, they're all full of lies and cow manure.



I still dont see how everyone is skating around the issue; we have all pretty much expressed our opinion on the matter, what more do you want? Im not trying to be rude, just understand what your trying to get at.



If they want to stay, make them fess up to being illegal, have them take the test, apply for citzenship, learn

-at the very least- the basics of the language and then sever ties with their former countries. Thats another thing that irriates the hell out of me; If you want to come here and livem fine! But dont come here and fly the flag of Puerto Rico out your cars window. this is Charlotte North Carolina hoss, not San Juan.

Actually MoD my chum,you don't know what you're missing by not getting to know how other people are living/lived in other parts of the world. So saying 'its nice never to meet' isn't really an accurate statement. I'm an english speaking resident in Quebec -speaking broken french in Quebec, and the locals don't hold back from treating me as if they've known me for years,+ sometimes local women who are happy to have met you give you cheek kisses after knowing you for only 10 minutes -in front of their hubbies!
Folks from other parts of the world can give you an excellent perspectives of how good or bad things were/are in their homelands of origins and you'll find its quite the eye-opener- better than 'nice' if you hear some of the most intriguing stories they have to tell- even if in not so perfect english.

Which leads me to point out why one would risk becoming an illegal worker if you had almost zero chance of better-ing your life if the opportunities were just a border away. The reasons are broad,complex, and differ widely.
The problem aren't illegal immigrants who WORK HARD AND DESIRE TO CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY AS A GOOD NORMAL CITIZEN -some of which end up creating businesses that hire more employees/generate more income in the economy/which results in extra cash for uncle sam [or some other democratic government in the same vein]. The problems are illegal immigrants that are sponges and loafers much like those citizens who are naturally-born in the USA or other favoured country and who are scammers and steal legally/illegally from their fellow citizens.

It's easy to lump people into whole groups and bash them, but that's unsophisticated and unfair and reflects a dimwit's thinking if they can't see there are very good humans caught up in bad circumstances not of their own making and who earnestly desire to do well in life and mean no harm to others.

Right now the world is ripping apart as those who live and preach zero intolerance to 'non-believers' are waging suicidal war against the forces of democracy and free-will. Let's remember which side of the war we are on by not adopting the ideals of hatred and indifference by the zealots. All there is, is good people and bad people in my opinion....