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Cpt. Snot Rocket
September 4, 2007

Michael Moore wants socialized medicine in the United States. It would, as his film Sicko suggests, give us a system that better delivers health care to those who need it. Although Moore effectively documents some deficiencies in American health care, his message is undermined by misinformation, inconsistent rhetoric, and a disingenuous agenda. Moore's plan would result in worse, not better, health outcomes for Americans — including the poor and underserved.



As a hand surgeon who treats many traumatic injuries, Moore's portrayal of a patient who amputated his middle fingertip captured my interest. He depicted this uninsured man as required to pay $23,000 to have his finger "saved." Moore lost considerable credibility here. Most hand surgeons would never consider micro-surgically replanting this table saw injury at the finger nail base. Rather, this unfortunate injury would have been comfortably and safely treated — without reattachment of the severed bit of finger — in an office procedure room for $1,000 or less.



In Sicko, Moore consistently equated lack of insurance with inability to obtain care. In Grand Rapids, Mich., where I practice, a sign on the front door of Blodgett hospital, in English and Spanish, indicates patients will not be turned away for lack of ability to pay. This is policy across the United States.

We hear a lot about the nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance. However, approximately half of them are insured six months later with new jobs, suggesting more of a problem with our employer based health care system than with affordability.



Moore harshly criticizes the U.S. government. Yet he is arguing for a centrally controlled allocation of health care resources. Who does he want to run health care in this country? Medical resources are not unlimited. The combination of aging demographics, technological advances and unconstrained consumption within our third party payment system has led to an unsustainable trajectory of ever increasing spending. It is already clear that price controls have created strong disincentives to debt-burdened students considering careers in primary care. Yet Sicko gives market oriented solutions no consideration.



IPB ImageThree individuals with ailments after admirably serving in New York rescue and recovery efforts after September 11, 2001, were transparently used in Sicko to promote Moore's agenda. This manipulation was as revolting as the stories of individuals egregiously denied care by insurance companies. Transported to Cuba, the three 9-11 patients were shown to Cuban doctors who (while cameras were rolling) appeared more than happy to provide care and subsidized prescriptions. This contrasted with a California hospital denying care to a child with a severe infection and a sick, elderly woman dropped off by a taxi in front of a rescue mission while still in her hospital gown. The latter two tragic situations were portrayed as illustrative examples of our domestic medical system.

There is no question we need major improvement in U.S. health care. To use a few outrageous anecdotes to argue for a socialized solution, however, is a non-sequitur. Despite ostensibly compassionate intentions on the part of its backers, greater harm would result from centrally planned and controlled health care. Canada and the United Kingdom provide contemporary models: rationing occurs by decree and delay. Even the Canadian Supreme Court, when ruling against Canada's single-payer law prohibiting private payment for health care in 2006, stated, "access to a waiting list is not access to health care ... in some cases patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care ... and many patients on non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real quality of life."



Pope Benedict XVI wrote in his recent encyclical Deus Caritas Est, "We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need." Moore and his allies would do well to take this exhortation to heart. We now have unsustainable consumption of medical resources, with third party responsibility for health care expenses. A socialized system would increase state dependency and diminish motivation for charity. Greater government bureaucracy would increase inefficiency and waste compared to doctor-patient "two-party" interaction. Socialized medicine violates the social justice principle of subsidiarity by interfering with the family, churches, charitable clinics, and other intermediate organizations attending to those who are most in need.



The common good would be better served with medical insurance purchased, like other insurance, outside the workplace. Tax law changes could help improve insurance portability and affordability. Insurance industry reform, including measures increasing inter-state competition, could decrease premium cost. Greater competition from patients directly paying premiums would lead to stronger demands for quality and less egregious denials of care. With improved alignment of responsibility for personal health choices and medical care consumption, scarce health care resource allocation would improve. There is significant opportunity for recovery. Market oriented reforms, with compassionate consideration for those without means, deserve far greater consideration than Sicko's deceptive solution.



Dr. Donald P. Condit is an orthopaedic surgeon specializing in hand surgery in Grand Rapids, Mich. He also holds an MBA degree from the Seidman School of Business at Grand Valley State University.

(This article is a product of the Acton Institute — www.acton.org, 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301, Grand Rapids, MI 49503 — and is reprinted with permission.)

Genocide Junkie
But we're entitled to "free" health care aren't we? Just like we are entitled to Social Security, Medicare, and every other government program that continues to not work... Hooray Socialism.
flatliner
Government programs include education....
UNDEAD 1
i think the problems lie with doctors over charging the insurance companies,for instance ,if your paying cash a procedure would be say $50 but if you have insurance theyll charge $150. my wife works with a chiropractor and oh boy,do they make out.dentists will charge $50 if your late for your appointment and more if you miss it .

i just think its careless the insurance cos dont have people to audit the doctors.





{CuF}crazycanuck
we have universal health care in Canada. Although it is a definit bonus being able to have free health care let me fill you in on a few details from a country that has it...

#1) your physicians better be ready to take a possible paycut because through this system the government will allocate funds to there salaries and it will probabaly be tightly controlled. This is the reason why we are losing new physicians to the U.S they can make more money.

#2) be prepared for tax hikes and some of the things you can write off goodbye. Taxes here in Canada are some of thje highest in the world to pay for free health care. persoanlly last year i payed almost 45% of my income to taxes. Being able to have a broken arm fixed up for free has to cost someone and you do pay. i have an extra 800 bucks last year tacked on to my provincial taxes as a health care premium. plus we pay 14 % taxes on our purchases..(.6% gst tax, 8% pst tax),ohhh by the way did you know that gst is even payed on services,,,aka FUNERALS AND CAR REPAIRS to name a few, and if you dare have a beer at a bar you also pay 10% booze tax on top of this. Ever payed 10 dollars for a pack of smokes(ya, ya i know,,shush...lol) if you smoke up here you do...for a few examples of the extra costs to pay for this system.

3) you may already have this, but we have places in ontario that are horribly underserviced because of the doctor shortage. a new doctors office opened up in Kitchener and they had 1300 spaces for new patients..the spaces filled in 45 minutes.

free health care does have a lot of advantages, but it comes with a lot of hidden nasties that the public doesn't realize and should be prepared for as i said higher taxes and new taxes are a possibility. remeber it still has to be payed for. some of the private hospitals may have to switch to government control and you may lose some very good facilities. The standard of care will be set by the government, be prepared for sometimes VERY long waits at the emergency room. we have emergency rooms closing because they do not have the funds to pay for the services in there budgets. In stratford our hospital closed 30 beds because they had to balance the budget..so kiss the ability to have 30 people helped out the window.

Ambulances are constatntly redirected from hospital to hospital in some cities like toronto..too busy and cannot take the patient. there are communities that have no doctors at all..my friend lives in a northern community and the yearly check up for him and the wife includes three days off work and a two night hotel stay and a 7 hour commute either way.As he says its a lot of time and money to have doctor long fingers check his colon once a year.. laugh.gif

We have nurses that get laid off..seriously ..NURSES LAID OFF not because of lack of work..heck no.no money in the provincially allocated budget to that hospital to pay wages...

and don't forget you still pay out of your own pocket(here we do) for dental,eye care, and other specialized services.

Once a system is free its open to abuse as well, like people feeling it nessesary to take little timmy to the emergency room because he has the sniffles and if you don't have a family doctor and a clinic isn't close by then the emergency room becomes your doctor, again causing at times major backups and the hospital prioritizing your problem..i sat in Fergus with a broken hand for over 7 hours waiting..and the nurse could only give me tylenol and a pillow for my hand because others were "prioritized" higher then me. talk about a long painful wait..my hand swelled huge during this wait and i had to be sent home to get the swelling down before they could do anything..

so bad parts..my hand was broken and twisted and extremely painful and it stayed like that with litle help for 17 hours before i went back the next day when immediate teatment would have avaoided this..
good parts i didn't get a bill for the services.

so theres my two cents..ok more then two cents.
Cpt. Snot Rocket
That's some great and honest input Canuck!! You points only illustrate why the USA has the best and most advanced healthcare in the world.
(It has some issues of course that needed improved of course.)
The reason our economy works so well is competition. Everyday we have to get up and go to our jobs and do a good days work or we risk losing our job. What's more if you do great work you can triple your earnings with promotions and what not.

Why would we not want more competition in the health care world? It only makes health care better. Having the goverment control this is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Capt. Andtennille
QUOTE(Cpt. Snot Rocket @ 09/06/07 9:03am) *
... Having the goverment control this is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you want to see what government run healthcare would look like, head down to your local Motor Vehicle department.

UNDEAD 1
First off we already have govt run health care ,you should go down there and take a look,its disgusting. if you or i ever got sick they wouldnt take us because we most likely made to much a year,im sure most of us make more than 35 k. im sure most people who live in the united states can afford $950. a month for half decent insurance for a small family of two adults and one child even though it is MORE than your mortgage payment a month.



i dont like michael moore and i have only seen bits and pieces of the movie but some of the scenes that really ticked me off were insurance cos finding loop holes to NOT pay someones medical bills when they were sick,the last thing i want to do when i have cancer is get a lwayer. i dont have confidence in our health care if i pay an arm and a leg to be insured for 20 years and then when i get sick they say "woops,you missed line 20" and i dont get funded and within 5 minutes the hospital says ,"you gotta go,lol"



what i see for the future of this country is this,you have an economy that is starting to take a turn for the worse and as things tighten up a little your going to see less people being able to pay for health insurance. i personaly do not think government run health care is the answer ,i do however think our system can run more effeciently and our government could be more stern with the insurance companies which have to many freedoms to do whatever the f they want.
Barkmann
Free health care in Canada? As Canadians we still have to pay for it, its called taxes.

And are health care system is not that good now since we have too maney ppl now.

More doctor are leaving to go to work in the US. Hospitals are low on beds, doctors, in Toronto we cant even get a bloody MIR machine [gov't too cheap to get one] we have to fix the system. We need more doctors more beds more machines to help the sick.

I got hurt at work one night went to the hospital and waiting something like 6 bloody hours to see a doctor.

Then theres stories about ppl dieing befor they get into the hospital, because they get turn away.

I dont know how it is across Canada but i do know how it is here in Torornto/Ontario





M@ster of Dis@ster
QUOTE(Barkmann @ 09/06/07 5:51pm) *

Free health care in Canada? As Canadians we still have to pay for it, its called taxes.

And are health care system is not that good now since we have too maney ppl now.

More doctor are leaving to go to work in the US. Hospitals are low on beds, doctors, in Toronto we cant even get a bloody MIR machine [gov't too cheap to get one] we have to fix the system. We need more doctors more beds more machines to help the sick.

I got hurt at work one night went to the hospital and waiting something like 6 bloody hours to see a doctor.

Then theres stories about ppl dieing befor they get into the hospital, because they get turn away.

I dont know how it is across Canada but i do know how it is here in Torornto/Ontario


I live in PEI and even work in a hosptial, and it is really good here. Not perfect mind you, but overall excellent care, people leave pleased and happy, and no one, rich or poor, has to wiegh the pros and cons about going to a hospital to get a potentially severe issue looked at because on concerns about cost. In Canada, health care is a right, not a privledge. I prefer it that way.

And if anyone ever want to come take a tour of the hospital I work at, I'd be pleased to show you. It is new, sparkling clean, and well run.

Also, the reason Toronto/Ontario might be spreading it's money too thin in health care might have to do with the fact they have the lowest taxes in Canada after many cuts in the 90's, aside from uber-rich Alberta. Yes, health care costs money. But provinces can buy equipment, drugs, etc. at far reduced rates thanks to economies of scale than a million HMO's can in the US, which also scoop their profits off the top. That why Canadians pay far less ever for paid prescription drugs than actual Americans do, even for drugs MADE in AMERICA! That's the "free market" for you...but it's not working for the average American...it's working for their drug companies though. In term of percentage of our GDP, Canada pays far less than the US for it's overal health care costs. Places like Ontario could put more money in and fix those issues, and still face less cost overall than the US pays out, even though 20% of US citizens aren't even covered.

However, if Americans don't want medicare and don't care that at any time 1 in 6 Americans faces financial ruin, or worse, if something serious happens, that is certainly their right. I will just say that I like Canada's system and wish it to remain, and believe there's enough money to go around to afford to fix any issue in certain areas. Unlike some other countries, Canada consistently has surpluses and can direct more money to fix issues if it wishes. That's what I'd prefer. Most every European country is public as well, and face lower wait times than the US and Canada. Canada can fix it's issues with a little more money (including money for doctors), and still pay less per ratio of GDP than the States. Oh, and cover all it's citizens, rich, poor, recently jobless, children...everyone. That's a part of Canada I like and am proud of.
Blitz
Nothing in life is ever free!

The socalist systems around the world take from each according to their abilities and give to each according to thier need. (Taxes)

I would much rather be responsible for myself and my family rather than have some gov't. official look after my well being and tell me what I need.

Ask yourself why flu vaccacines run dry when needed the most.... Hillary care is the answer. The gowernment used their huge "buying power" to set the prices. Funny thing is they set the prices low enough that all but the largest few companies can now make the drigs at a profit, the rest of the evil companies quit and went on to produce more profitable drugs or closed. How many people end up in the hospital because of this? Ahhh but if you are a member of the govenment you will get your shot because the people need you.

Anyone remember privatizing SS. I sure do, I ran my own buisness for 9 years so I had the added benefit of paying double. The funny thing about economics and compound interest is that money tends to double every seven years... (the rule of 72)

Example if your SS statement said that you had $50,000 in it say at the age of 35 the payout would be as follows.
35 yrs = $50,000
42 yrs = $100,000
49 yrs = $200,000
56 yrs = $400,000
63 yrs = $800,000
70 yrs = $1,600,000

That's without putting another dime in! Having the ability to take some money out and enjoy prior to dying, having money left to leave to wife, kids, family!

BUT NO, i would never want to privatize this and be responsible... I just can't handle the responsibility (*sarcasam off*)

I look at Health Care like SS, anything the government want's to get involved they are doing for their own benefit to use this power to buy votes and stay in power.
Does, scare the elderly come election time sound familiar to anyone? This is just with Medicare, Imagine once they have everyone divided into nice little groups.

Sorry to vent this stuff drives me crazy!

The economic saftey net has become a hammock!

Genocide Junkie
Part of the problem is the liability that the doctors carry and have to charge for. We have too many lawsuits over minor mistakes. Another issue is that the doctors are slaves to the insurance companies. I had my family doctor explain it like this. He charges $80 for a visit. Which is what he needs to make to make a good living and pay for everything. So Blue Cross says we'll pay you $65 of this. So next year he raises his fee to $85 because the insurance companies will raise the amount as the "reasonable and customary" amount goes up. So you have this cycle of raising prices which drives up costs of insurance which causes less people to have insurance which causes more people to not have it. Which causes doctors to charge more to people who do have it.... it goes on and on. I'm not sure what the answer is but we have to get the Insurance companies out of the loop some how. One more thing. Many of you know my dad (Hemlock) has severe back problems. The doctors won't treat pain. They don't make money off of it. The pain clinics want to run you through $10,000 of procedures that don't really help instead of a $50 prescription. Both of those take the doctor the same time so why would he do what is best for the patient?
Blitz
I agree that insurance companies are a large part of the problem.

Just put it into perspective, how many people actually shop around for medical insurance like you would with your auto and home?

I would assume that the majority of policies are from an employeer with employee deductions. Now if your going to be the person selling the policy to the company, you have to lower your rates to get the sale. This savings will most likely not come off the bottom line.

But if you cut a few corners about what you allow and what you don't well the person writing the checks will most likely never know. They know how much money they saved.

Put the shoe on the other foot, if you had the ability to keep the monies that your company paid towards insurance and shop around to multiple insurance companies they would have to start to cater to you the individual.

Medical care is a very personel matter, but it is done in a very impersonel way in a lot of respects. This IMOP is because the whole personel responsibility issue is missing from the equation.

UNDEAD 1
for the record i agree with your original post towards michael moore as he stirs up shit to get a movie at others expense.i would like to see a insurance/med reform of some sort though but im 37 and probably wont live to see that.

Cross of Iron
The UK does have a "free health care" and its crap....you have to wait up to 6 -8 hours to see a nurse ,who then tells you ,you have to wait afurther 3 hours to see the doctor, who then tells you to go see your own doctor ,and not come to the hospital ....Well thats ok ,IF you have your own doctor ,but with ALL doctors trying to go private now its hard....OOHHH yes the govenment say that there have to free healthcare doctors ,but when they open their doors ,they are ALREADY filled up ,due to the overdemaned for them.



The wages the hospital staff have are crap ,so they end up going to Auss ,USA or somewhere in Europe.The hospitals have very limited security ,so therefore the staff get attacked alot (another reason they leave), the wards are dreadful ,paint peeling from walls and (in some cases mould on the walls)

When my wife was in hospital having our son ,she came home with a bad cold ,that was a result of limited heating in the wards ,because of cutbacks.



You have to wait up to,and including ,7 months for a minor op ,and up to 2 years for a major op....reason being that they hope you die BEFORE you have it ,that way they might get more govenment funding.

The ambulances have to get to a call in a certain time frame ,or the local health care that runs them are fined...this you might say is a good thing...well last year there were over 25 crashes with ambulances because they were told to rush to a scene or they would have thier govenment funding reduced....(so yer good one that )



Both my in-laws are nurses at hospitals in Southampton UK ,and they both hate their jobs ,because its all about politics and not helping pateints...they feel like they are not doing what they waited to do anymore ,and who blames them really.

I also worked as a nurse assistant in a mental health hospital the RSH in Southampton,that had free healthcare doctors ,just that they never really cared for the patients ,as they were to busy worring about their PRIVATE ones.(another reason why the staff leave)

And ,yes you could go PRIVATE and have your health care done that way ,but when an operation to have yer galstones removed costs upwards of $35,000 who wants to ,or can afford it.



Then to top it all ,we get an estimated 125,000 illegal immigrants a year in the UK ,and ALL of them get free healthcare ,as the govenment say its helping our fellow countries out.



So do you really think having a "free healthcare is good ????) I DIDN`T THINK SO.



M@ster of Dis@ster
QUOTE(Cross of Iron @ 09/07/07 4:23am) *

The UK does have a "free health care" and its crap....you have to wait up to 6 -8 hours to see a nurse ,who then tells you ,you have to wait afurther 3 hours to see the doctor, who then tells you to go see your own doctor ,and not come to the hospital ....Well thats ok ,IF you have your own doctor ,but with ALL doctors trying to go private now its hard....OOHHH yes the govenment say that there have to free healthcare doctors ,but when they open their doors ,they are ALREADY filled up ,due to the overdemaned for them.



The wages the hospital staff have are crap ,so they end up going to Auss ,USA or somewhere in Europe.The hospitals have very limited security ,so therefore the staff get attacked alot (another reason they leave), the wards are dreadful ,paint peeling from walls and (in some cases mould on the walls)

When my wife was in hospital having our son ,she came home with a bad cold ,that was a result of limited heating in the wards ,because of cutbacks.



You have to wait up to,and including ,7 months for a minor op ,and up to 2 years for a major op....reason being that they hope you die BEFORE you have it ,that way they might get more govenment funding.

The ambulances have to get to a call in a certain time frame ,or the local health care that runs them are fined...this you might say is a good thing...well last year there were over 25 crashes with ambulances because they were told to rush to a scene or they would have thier govenment funding reduced....(so yer good one that )



Both my in-laws are nurses at hospitals in Southampton UK ,and they both hate their jobs ,because its all about politics and not helping pateints...they feel like they are not doing what they waited to do anymore ,and who blames them really.

I also worked as a nurse assistant in a mental health hospital the RSH in Southampton,that had free healthcare doctors ,just that they never really cared for the patients ,as they were to busy worring about their PRIVATE ones.(another reason why the staff leave)

And ,yes you could go PRIVATE and have your health care done that way ,but when an operation to have yer galstones removed costs upwards of $35,000 who wants to ,or can afford it.



Then to top it all ,we get an estimated 125,000 illegal immigrants a year in the UK ,and ALL of them get free healthcare ,as the govenment say its helping our fellow countries out.



So do you really think having a "free healthcare is good ????) I DIDN`T THINK SO.


THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.

Capt. Andtennille
QUOTE(M@ster of Dis@ster @ 09/07/07 7:29am) *

THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.



Absolutely correct. EVERYONE should have crappy healthcare.

T/A6Pak
A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak



M@ster of Dis@ster
QUOTE(T/A6Pak @ 09/19/07 2:16pm) *

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak


I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.

IMO, the problem is we cut budgets to health care during the deficit reducing 90's, but haven't re-established spending now that we're in surplus.

And at the end of the day, I'd still say we get darn good health care for the majority even if it is underfunded somewhat. We still beat American life expectancy by about 2 years. Although there is many factors involved, we're similar countries, similar cultures, diets, work schedules, etc, so I think this is relavant.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm
Keystone Two-Eight
QUOTE(Cpt. Snot Rocket @ 09/06/07 12:06am) *
September 4, 2007
Michael Moore wants




That's all you have to say S.R. and I think the rest will fall into place. .

Cpt. Snot Rocket
QUOTE(M@ster of Dis@ster @ 09/19/07 3:37pm) *
QUOTE(T/A6Pak @ 09/19/07 2:16pm) *

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak


I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.




I think your confusing some things MoD. The GDP is the total dollar value of all goods and services PRODUCED. That is how much money the Health industry generates, not the amount of money the US Goverment or US Citezens spend on health care. There is a disctinct diffence. Pharmaceuticals, Equipment and Services that are sold from the US tothe world also go into the GDP.



And by the way there are far fewer than 1/5th of the US that is uninsured. Take Hillary Clinton claim that 50Million Amercans are uninsured. That INCLUDES about 15MIllion "Illegal Aliens"!!! And aslo another 5 to 6 million that us Medicare but only file when they need it. When they don't they are listed as uninsured. The real number is likely around 20Million people out of 300Million population.

Capt. Andtennille
QUOTE(Cpt. Snot Rocket @ 09/20/07 5:32pm) *
QUOTE(M@ster of Dis@ster @ 09/19/07 3:37pm) *
QUOTE(T/A6Pak @ 09/19/07 2:16pm) *

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak


I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.




I think your confusing some things MoD. The GDP is the total dollar value of all goods and services PRODUCED. That is how much money the Health industry generates, not the amount of money the US Goverment or US Citezens spend on health care. There is a disctinct diffence. Pharmaceuticals, Equipment and Services that are sold from the US tothe world also go into the GDP.



And by the way there are far fewer than 1/5th of the US that is uninsured. Take Hillary Clinton claim that 50Million Amercans are uninsured. That INCLUDES about 15MIllion "Illegal Aliens"!!! And aslo another 5 to 6 million that us Medicare but only file when they need it. When they don't they are listed as uninsured. The real number is likely around 20Million people out of 300Million population.





And "uninsured" does not mean untreated. Anyone can walk into an emergency room and get treatment even if they don't have insurance.

I've never understood how anyone who's ever been down to the Department Of Motor Vehicles would ever want the government to run anything. Want better health care in the U.S.? Pass Tort reform so doctors can practice medicine without all of the frivilous lawsuits. That includes the pharmecutical companies. One of the reasons that medicine is so expensive in the U.S. is that the cost of lawsuits is much higher here.

MoD is very much in favor of the U.S. getting socialized health care, yet he constantly points out that the government doesn't do anything right. I guess the reason that Communism has failed every time it's been tried is that the right people weren't running it. LOL

Hellfighter
QUOTE(Capt. Andtennille @ 09/19/07 10:03am) *
QUOTE(M@ster of Dis@ster @ 09/07/07 7:29am) *

THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.



Absolutely correct. EVERYONE should have crappy healthcare.



Uninsured may mean not untreated in the USA, but true or not->peoples lives are in jeopardy when that uninsured visit is a very long wait or not the best treatment.

Why do you always speak from a pulpit preaching without any knowledge of your sermon.....
Our [Canadian] health sytem is stretched but everyone gets a fair shake when push comes to shove in terms of not being in want of some decent health care.
I'll give you an example of our [Canada's] crappy health care system.

2 years ago a friend of mine in his 50s wonders why he's progreesively getting tired walking about- he goes in for his FREE check-up. Doctor runs tests on him. Doctor tells my friend [orders almost] to get checked into hospital right away - Within 3 days he has undergone a major heart surgery. Walks out of hospital a few weeks later- no more tiredness. The surgery was free-FREE; His life was saved- Expert and careful analysis by the doctor saved his life - Now I'm not sure where 'CRAPPY' comes into that equation according to 'oh so enlightened you'.
And all my friend is paying for now is blood pressure medication.....

You can bicker your deluded dreams all you want about our system up here without even having visited here, but your opinions seem ridiculous when you call it communism. We vote up here, we have much in common in culture and society set-up as the USA- US Visitors coming up here enjoy our culture and see we have alot in common- The only too-true complaint is our heavy taxes. What's the trade off?- Things generally run smoothly - crime is a problem but not overblown and out of control like in some US cities - I don't think any of the cities up here have murders totalling over 60 this year - however, even 1 murder is too much. But our taxes often, but not always go to good use - crime solutions and joint efforts between government /local govt, and cops and society all kick in together to try keep youngsters on the right path.... maybe that kind of social responsibility rings of communism to you [only] but Americans visiting here are impressed enough.


Genocide Junkie
I know this thread is pretty much dead but I caught a rerun of Oprah today that featured this Michael Moore fellow. He sickens me best I can say. They had a loaded question as the theme of the show "Should a gas station attendant's children get the same medical care that a CEO's children receive?" Well of course everyone is going to answer yes. In an ideal world that would be fabulous. He almost made me gag when he started quoting Jesus. Said we shouldn't call it Socialized medicine but "Christian" medicine. Coming from him it sounds like a stab at faith. Not an endorsement of government controlled health care. They had an example of a man with leukemia that the insurance company would not authorize a $400k surgery for. Not that they denied the claim but that the charge was out of line with customary charges. Oprah couldn't understand that the insurance company had negotiated rates with a network of hospitals that would in fact provide the care for this gentleman for the amount specified. I don't pretend to think that our system is not broken but I shudder to think about how government run healthcare would look. I've seen our crappy schools and the DMV. Enough said. We already have a shortage of nurses and doctors in this country. What do you think is going to happen when you limit their abilities to earn higher incomes? You guessed it even fewer nurses and doctors. I have nightmares about what is going to happen if this ever goes through... cya later advanced health care hello DMV....
Ghost Child
If the USA got universal health care, where would the Canadians go to get good health care?
Hellfighter
QUOTE(Ghost Child @ 10/11/07 10:38pm) *
If the USA got universal health care, where would the Canadians go to get good health care?


Read 2 posts up- you missed the point- Canadians that can afford privileged health care will come to the States for that probably life saving operation they're waiting in a line up for up here. The point is unlike down in the States all Canucks -poor too- are privileged for a half decent health care at miniscule cost [drugs -and if not wealthy paying ZERO - costs for our health care are of course through taxes - I'm guessing *since I calculate my own taxes to know* is that for each $15,000 net a person makes a year is about $10 they pay into the healthcare system -someone correct me if I'm mistaken but yes that's the total per year].

Yes we get periods of chaos at hosptals, but seeing as our cost of living is nearly the highest in the world amongst developed nations you can imagine free/ and very near-to- health care from excellent physicians and nurses we have up here is a blessing for us with little extra money to splurge. My question to you -hahaha- is where would the US hospital recruiters go if they couldn't find well qualified staff to 'steal' as we have up here? laugh.gif
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