Toronto terror 'plot'... 6pak - comments?, Large terror cell recently busted Options

[Hellfighter]

Apparently a London terror style plot targeting various Toronto/Ontario objectives was foiled. No time to comment in depth on it myself.
Perhaps 6pak [with her regional/work experience] can add some of her thoughts on the topic?

[Wotansvolk]

One of those terrorist have served in canadian military for 4 years! How come we accept guys like that in the military.....cause we don't want to be accused of racism? What do you think about letting muslim enroll without studying were they come from, their family's and their belief about their religion? Don't get me wrong ...i know not all muslim are fanatics!!

[Hellfighter]

I think its an error to judge the Canadian Forces enrollment policy along racist/discriminating viewpoints - a broad spectrum of cultures and colours and sexes only makes for a healthier fighting force reflective of the society they are defending. Just about every democratic army in the world has people signed up in their armies from every faith and religion, or non-religion. Its not like the guy had a sign on his head saying 'I'm a potential terrorist'. Also, that bozo may not even initially have had any terrorist inclinations prior to signing up.... from what I hear so far, he had very little infantry training and was far from a capable/model soldier in those entire four years. This flunker/loser mentality he obviously had may have contributed to his warped logic that getting together with other similar dumbasses to plan on destroying innocent lives would give him some 'staus' in the eyes of fellow extremist monkeys. One positive footnote up here is several Canadian/Arab organizations loudly/vocally blasting the plotters.

This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 06/08/06 12:11pm

[Wotansvolk]

I don't say don't allow them to enroll it's true your army reflect your population....but when you got a guy who is a muslim, who his parents were born in another country, maybe he should get more attention than a " 3rd generation canadian".

That's my thought!!

[Hellfighter]

I don't say don't allow them to enroll it's true your army reflect your population....but when you got a guy who is a muslim, who his parents were born in another country, maybe he should get more attention than a " 3rd generation canadian".

That's my thought!!

.... Most of the entire population up here are honest enough to consider young Canada as a nation of immigrants [the growing percentage of which are recent immigrants/ 1st/2nd generation Canadians] settling with the original native populations. In particular, Toronto and its suburbs are a true vast kaleidoscope of dozens of cultures. Up here it's Canadian first by all> generally, and for the last couple of decades the idea of a hierarchy of who is more a Canadian by virtue of number of generations or just recently arrived or born as a first generation Canadian is pooped upon> Wisely so....

"Getting more attention" when enrolling is is an equal opportunity process as in any army. Backgrounds are presumably checked thoroughly. For example, Timothy McVeigh got in the army, no one could have predicted what mayhem he'd be carrying out years later. The same with the former Canadian Parachute regiment that was dissolved following its Somalia mission [1990s] ; one reason being when a pattern of flagrant neo-nazism was being practised by several of its members. Basically, I'm saying it's hard to predict what a rare few individuals may end up scheming after they leave the service, or once they have been accepted.

But moreover, this wannabe terrorist scumbucket was very derelict in duties from what we're hearing so far, so its hard to imagine he took full advantage of weapons familiarity.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 06/08/06 6:41pm

[T/A6Pak]

I was sun bathing in Las Vegas...drinking by the pool, when some people informed us of this.

The problem with Canada...is that they let anyone in!!!! People come here and get temporary passports..report them stolen and sell them to people on the black market. Our goverment will issue them a new one. Canada government often treats everyone as humanitarians. If you commit a crime while on a temporary citenship...your suppose to get deported. People just move to Toronto or Montreal and hide our and steal someone elses identity.

These issues really heat me up...due to the fact that I deal with this politcal bull shi* everyday! I think it's the only thing I can't stand about Canada. Oh yea...also we should have the death penalty. That's why people take safe haven here. We won't deport someone to another county if they may get the death penalty. BULL!!! Send them away....



Just to add....

If you come to our County you should follow our rules!!! And vice-versa.

Prime example...A police officer...(I believe from the Toronto region, felt he should be able to wear his turbin while on duty. Guess what he won. That's crap. It has nothing to do with your beliefs..this is due to the fact that we have a uniform issued. This uniform is to show we are military and makes us stand out and visible to the people. We all wear the same issued hats and uniforms...it's not like I say: Oh, I'm a female so I want to wear a pink uniform hat. Uniforms are to make all one in the same...just like McDonalds or school uniforms.

Now this guy makes an issue that it's his religion and culture to wear a turbin. And now he does not have to wear his issued hat. As far as I am concerned he should go police in his country where they wear turbins as part as there uniform. I am sure that if I showed up in his country to police...that I would not be eliminated from covering my entire face with cloth because I am female.

This is not prejudice...this is our practice....other countries don't change there's for us...why should we change ours for them????????

[Bargod]

Amen, 6pak! I am a very tolerant person, but political correctness is being used against us (us being a general term for Western countries). I may not agree with a lot of the ideas of the French, but their laws of "equality" say that no school child in a public school (is that all they have?) can have any identifying religious emblems. So in a country of Catholics, no child can wear a cross on a chain, or a saints medal. However, the Muslims have been fighting this because of thier religious beliefs. In no way am I anti-Muslim, but this law is in place to prevent people from discrimination! And yet here you have immigrants fighting for "thier rights" to do whatever they want in the country it was their choice to move to. Nobody forced them to move to France. What a horrible thing that would be, lol. But you have Muslims choose to move to France, and then they protest the laws that try to keep people from being treated differently. What a crock of ****!
I just don't understand how you can choose to live somewhere and then fight to change the laws of the place you chose to live. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Wotansvolk]

I like what you say 6pak, you never ear it though on television or in any media cause people are scared to be called racist!! Here in Quebec the education minister a couple of years ago made our school non-catholic took out all the crucifix from the classroom! But last year a sikh(the religion) boy was allowed to wear his kirpan at school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

Hey we don't want him to feel bad cause he can't bring his object of cult at school!
Another thing in montreal last year some muslim people asked to be able to aply their own law the sharia!! And believe it or not some people studied the possibility of giving them these right.....can you believe some canadian would have accept some immigrant to apply their own law!!

I hate what we are becoming, we are forgetting our liberty and our roots to make immigrant feel more like they are in their own country! Sorry... like 6pak said you're in my country you go by my rules you don't like it go back !!! As for the immigrant breaking our rules or making crimes.....don't put them in jail we are paying for people that are in jail i'd rather give him a one way ticket to his original country!!

That was my opinion!!
C ya!

[Hellfighter]

We do send monsters back for the death penalty;
Google up Charles Ng and his monstrosities, see how he fled across the border into Alberta [?] and was caught by chance... then our government came to terms with the fact that it would indeed be wise to send him back to California to face justice and thankfully the death penalty not to mention give great sighs of relief to the loved ones of the multiple victims of this vermin. It occurred however only after lengthy debate and the swaying point was the issue of by letting him stay here, other vile law breakers could come up in Canada [even flock here perhaps]to live out their natural days.

I disagree on the uniform issue. First the 'go back to their country' term has nothing to do with their religious beliefs. Natural born Canadians can be of a variety of religions. Saying you see a different point of view other than an opinion that might offend someone hardly is about being scared you'll be called a racist- it's simply someone else having a different viewpoint- naturally there may indeed be a small percentage on either side who are indeed racist or even scared to be called racist, but generally most people will argue out their points without fear. I don't think you're racist for your viewpoints which I do respect. It's like someone who hates Bush's policies being called a Bush hater and having no actual opinions on Bush's 'leadership'.
I was in Toronto in the 1970s/80s and several somewhat 'raging' debates flared up occasionally regarding police 'uniformity'. There was the issue of female inclusion ; their duties/uniforms capabilities.... there was the issue of minimal height requirement being amended when a south-east asian was denied inclusion into the police force because gentically people of his culture were several inches shorter than the average Westerner's height. The general public were consumed with fear at how any change to the current physique standards would be the end of everything. Then the most famous case at that time was a fellow who had a 'hat issue' when he joined the RCMP.

At first I was against the idea along with the majority but I changed my opinion as the wheels of democratic debate and discussion kicked in... The main argument being how do these issues affect the performance of those who wish to dedicate their lives to serving their society? A major human trait is to resist change during complacency. Since this Sikh won the lifting of the turban ban in the RCMP all has not gone to hell in that elite contingent of law enforcement. In 1974 a dress code alteration [pardon the pun] was made in the RCMP regarding female officers. To me such debates are similar to those resistors of gays and females in the military /fighting roles. I feel like sticking a karate kick through my television when I hear resistors saying such an 'idea' won't/doesn't work. One of my side researches are females fighting in wars throughout history, in particular if one reads up on their fighting distinction in the Sovier Army in WW2 there'd be no need to discuss a female's desire to be on the front line on the ground. Same with gays; they've been fighting in armies forever, why ban them just because they become 'known'!

To me inclusion of cultures in a democracy defines what seperates us from the anti-democracy nations. It says progression as opposed to stagnation and regression. Those cultures are backwards thinking - a few weeks ago in Iraq[?] , 2 Iraqi guys were murdered because they wore shorts! Someting to do with a monkey-brained [imo] Sharia law being broken. People aren't flocking to immigrate to those countries. Unfortunately not enough 'middle-class joes' and their families are let into Canada some upset with immigration to get a real appreciation for seeing first-hand the similarities of foreign hard workers with similar life ambitions. Priority is given to the very wealthy or very hard up. We have the laws in place to deal with immigrant evil-doers and send them back to their countries, but like most government departments in many Western nations, the process is drawn out and backed up.

In Canada we should appreciate how our system discusses social ideas, and much more often than not the radical/dangerous ideas are indeed done away with.... and personally, if I had a kid I wouldn't want them sitting in class next to anyone with a dagger; as for turbans in the ranks... the sun will rise tomorrow and everything will grind along again normally.

I just don't understand how you can choose to live somewhere and then fight to change the laws of the place you chose to live. It just doesn't make sense to me.

ps. Not to defend those that seek chaotic law changes [like the extreme Muslims fighting to have women with veils not being required to take them off for license ids!!!] but natural born folks in democratic nations occasionally seek to amend Laws - especially the outdated ones.

I hate what we are becoming, we are forgetting our liberty and our roots to make immigrant feel more like they are in their own country!

Just about every wave of immigrants [ irish to south american to whatever] in our young nation has been bashed at some point often along the lines of 'what we are becoming'. This is definately nothing new and you'd be hard-pressed to define what real Canadian roots are... aboriginal, French, British??... the majority of Canadians are a mixed bag culturally but generally think of Canada first. Most immigrants are coming here to start a new life...it's just more apparent that those that don't, make the headlines [imo].




This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 06/16/06 4:19am

[Wotansvolk]

Hey mon chum Hell, my only point is that if you immigrate in another country you live like they do in that country i'm against the "Ghettoisation" chinese all regroup in chinese quarter, italian in little italia and so on.How do you want to integrate in a new country if you don't mix with other people? I agree with you the people you here about in the media is always the minority and they make a bad image for the others!!

Why should we provide room at the university of montreal,for muslims to go pray?When we cannot put crucifix in the classroom! Why we should allow a boy to go to school with a knife? When there's more and more violence in schools! Why can't i say i don't like gay people without being called a homophobic? Or say we should control more our immigration without being called a racist? Especially in quebec, you have to be very carefull about what you say!! I am not racist, but i'm proud of my ancestor and the work they have done to build my country and we should never forget them. Like for a Haitien or chinese or Indian, they should never forget about their roots and their history, you need to know where you come from to know where you go!
But when those guys immigrate here they can be proud of their history and roots but don't forget you left your country cause you did'nt liked the way it was going in that country so don't come here and try to impose your way of living!!

But again i agree it's minority that makes problem!! A lot of immigrant are good workers and do jobs that other don't want to do, and they integrate in our country!

[Hellfighter]

I see all of your points Wotansvolk and respect them -really! But these issues are not unique to bending-over-backwards democratic nations- foreigners are de-'libertised' in some Asian, Muslim, African nations... those states are repressive in the fact that they engage in laws to keep everyone conforming to one ideal in my opinion-> sure are own system is not perfect but it's generally based on freedom of choice; of course there are a few clowns who come here and want to bring ugly repressive cultural practices and honestly though these issues produce lively debates, generally such ideas in reality will be squashed [like the proposal banning Ethiopian[?] young female circumcision practise in Toronto [90s ?] ....

I deplore people culturally isolating themselves, but I don't care if folks have their cultural festivals AND integrate with the general society. I myself immigrated here from the UK -the only cultural thing I do now is have chips with salt n' vinegar [and blabber with Cross here in cockney ] . I've lived all across Canada and been around a bit seeing how many cities has their own little Italy, Chinatown, Carib section, and heard all the "immigrants are turning anti-Canadian/West lifestyle" arguments for years and years... but our great country though not perfect, is VERY healthy compared to other nations who have large settlements of recent immigrants. From these 'enclaves' are future citizens who do integrate to keep our great nation healthy and free and from which have come the builders of our new nation as we know it and enjoy the benefits of [ another fact is that quite a few of the new arrivals though we see them doing everyday jobs not considered highly skilled are in fact very very high skilled by what their former job was in their country of origins but have no choice with their current employment-temporarily] You can imagine the first generations of all these immigrants had their original cultural routines in their community lifestyles [eastern europe, asian, carib, mid east lately... and I argue in reality only a very small percentage of new arrivals are self-cloistered/anti social and/or BS disturbers by nature.

Like I said we would probably in fact have very similar agreements on many ideas on this topic and I'm all for slapping down some of the same 'cultural' proposals as you perhaps. But my contention is that we[Canada and other immigrant influxed democratic nations] show ourselves as the way of the future by openly discussing even contreversial of ideas by not fearing to at least confront the issues [ in this process too, those foreign/cultural hardliners may learn about freedom of choice and discussion- and even get used to that 'foreign' idea]. I'm glad we're not a backwards fundamentalist state where there are goons in jackboots enforcing sweeping 'everyone tows the same line' rules/laws and the fear is of your family/friends turning on you if you whisper any dissension. I just have serious misgivings about starting to tread on that path of hardcore conformity... its hard to turn back and something precious/unique is lost.

ps. regarding people branding someone with a 'title' rightly or wrongly that goes along with expressing an opinion... why be defensive about that- it's part of the debate process... it's then up to you to make your argument that in fact you are not what you are accused of being... If you're correct, you will easily silence your critics or leave them muttering without a counter argument. I'm mostly about people just simply getting along decently above all else and knowing perhaps each others roots to better appreciate inclusion and diversity. I love the Quebecois since moving here and unlike a few across the nation that brand Quebec in unfair terms, I find folks here as friendly as anywhere else... now regarding the French sign laws ... another topic.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 06/16/06 9:39am

[Stickman]

I hate what we are becoming, we are forgetting our liberty and our roots to make immigrant feel more like they are in their own country! Sorry... like 6pak said you're in my country you go by my rules you don't like it go back !!!

It always makes me laugh when people say that in the name of liberty, we must limit the behaviour of others.

Liberty means you can live however you like, unless there is a damn good societal reason why you should be prevented from doing so. An immigrant wants to live in a "Ghetto" with others of his nationality? Well, it's a free country! IMHO, it makes a city much more interesting and vital when different neighbourhoods have different ethnic flavors. I've always considered that one of the few redeeming features of Toronto.
Besides, I guarantee you that if you ever move to a nation with a seriously different culture, you'll be damn tempted to find a "Canadian ghetto" where you can get a bit of respite from the culture shock.

Wotan, in MY country (Canada), the rules are that we respect the cultural and religious differences of our residents, even if they aren't of european extraction. We are a cultural mosaic. If you want a melting pot, move a couple of hundred miles south.

From that perspective, it seems obvious that respecting a sihks cultural and religious beliefs regarding his turban outweigh the trivial desire to see all the police wearing the same hat.

It seems obvious that if a significant number of students are required by their religion to pray 5 times a day, it would be a good idea to set aside an area for them to do so undisturbed.

It also seems obvious that there are limits to this. Canada has a charter of rights and freedoms, and a body of laws. This trumps an individuals cultural and religious values. Equality among the sexes is well established in canadian law, and Sharia law violates this, so, IMO, should not be allowed. But by all means, if someone disagrees, they should feel free to protest and lobby for a change. That's freedom at work.

We are very lucky in Canada (and the US) that, as nations of immigrants, assimilation is an option. Here, with very few exceptions, the children of immigrants grow up to be mainstream, assimilated Canadians. In europe, there's more of a catch-22 situation. Immigrants are criticised if they don't try to assimilate. However, even if they make every effort to adopt the culture of their new homes, they will never be accepted. My brother lives in Holland, and tells me that even a 3rd or 4th generation citizen will not be regarded as dutch if their skin is dark. Many people have told him that he is "the right kind of immigrant" (white) so the criticisms they have for dark skinned immigrants do not apply to him.

[Silver]

I say screw it....

The guys wants to wear a turbin on his head so what... but think about the danger involved in it. 2 cops are chasing a guy in a dark abandoned building. they get seperated for some reason and the uniformed (refering to his hat) shoots the turbin guy cuz it was dark and all he saw was a guy with a gun

[dienamic]

wow, being outta town durimg the week makes for me missing some good stuff lol.

ok, As far as letting muslims or potential terrorists in the military...... I am not sure how much screening any mil;itary does. I think after 9-11 we may be a bit more careful here, however does anyone recall the American soldier that was either of Middle Eastern decent or a Musslim throwing granades into a tent of his fellow soldiers? This happened way back in the beginning of the assault of Irac.

As far as the Towel helmet issue. Let me just add that the bigg problem that radical Muslims have with us is they want to protect thier people from us changing thier beliefs and way of life.

One could turn that around and say that they are trying to change Canada's customs of uniforms and the ability as Silver has pointed out to recognize thier own. There seems to be a double standard there ...hmmm.

I bet that never would have floated here, in fact I bet even if it did, the towel helment would have got him killed. Just a thought....If someone with a towel around thier head had a gun on me or tried to detain me or anything else would have to worry about me ending his life period. I say this not because I hate Muslims or anyone from the Middle East, but because of what has happened and what is still happening.

[Hellfighter]

But then there are the US military personnel of the Muslim faith that must have/ and are making things go smoothly via communicating between the Iraqi locals and the US boots on the ground... this valuable asset seems to offset one incident [horrid too] by a lone nutjob.

Regarding the turban issue, up here in Canada issues like this are discussed. Nothing confusing about the standards up here -though there are hiccups in the progressive way we try to accomodate our society, we are proud up here that it is trying to be a progressive nation. The fellow who got his wish to have a turban in the RCMP was by no means ranting for the right to do so at the time..... Furthermore the Brits never had an issue with Sikhs wearing turbans with the rest of their British uniform/weapons while the Sikhs fought valiantly in the Indian Mutiny, WW1 and WW2... so chalk one up for turban rights!

Yeah, I was wondering about your absence earlier on in this lively thread Dienamic ol' chum


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 06/18/06 1:09am