Support Israel, Support Israel Options

[pezking]

Wotan,

What you're seeing or have been exposed to is Hezbollah propoganda. Just like the first and second Gulf war, Saddam would say that we bombed a milk processing plant or a children's nursery. What he failed to mention is that they had missles underneath it. It's the same with Hezbollah. Israel put forth a week's notice that they would be tearing apart anything 25 miles north of the border and to stay up beyond that line to be clear of danger. I personally think that was up and above a fully decent act to do for the Lebanese civilians. If they choose to stay, as far as I'm concerned, they're probably terrorists looking to get some pot shots on Israeli soldiers.

I'm still finding it humorous that Israel is bound to war rules but Hezbollah isn't. Israel must apologize for striking civilians, Hezbollah doesn't. Very similar to the Allied forces in Iraq vs the insurgents. The insurgents will board up in a mosque and blow up parts of it but somehow it's the Allied forces fault. Crazy world.

Did anyone else see 60 Minutes on Sunday. Mike Wallace interviewed Iran's president. Very interesting how he side-stepped almost every question with a question of his own. Seriously, half of his answers were "how would you like me to respond to that?" All and all, a very smart politician. He would not take sides so that the terrorists would think he wasn't with them, yet still being sympathetic wearing his Member's Only jacket to appeal to the US viewers. I love propoganda.

[Leadmagnet]

personally, i dont trust muslims....the Koran basically says that anyone who doesn't believe in their interpretation of God and doesnt want to be converted is scum and should be punished for it. Granted we have fundamentalist christians who are just as crazy, but they usually dont strap themselves with explosives and indiscriminately kill people. Some say that this is limited to the middle eastern (fertile crescent) muslims, but i disagree. I think that Israel has shown considerable restraint in recent years considering their stance on aggression directed towards them. Hezbollah is a disease, and Genocide is the cure. Bye Bye.

[Wotansvolk]

personally, i dont trust muslims....the Koran basically says that anyone who doesn't believe in their interpretation of God and doesnt want to be converted is scum and should be punished for it.

The Talmud ...the book of law of the jews says the same thing my friend. Stop giving me the propaganda reason, US governement use propaganda Israeli too and Hezbollah every freakin country use propaganda to keep their people in misunderstanding what is really happening to manipulate the people.....what you have to do is listen to propaganda from each side and make your own idea.
And don't think cause you live in the US that the news you hear about the middle east are objective, US government is all with Israel and it's not to "Help" them, it's more of an economic reason like every thing that government do.

And Pez like i said before it's not because Hezbollah hide in certain place that you have the right to blow everybody that is around there! When they blow those place they kill catholic too.If everytime they blow a place they would show proof that hezbollah weapon or fighter were there....it might change my point of view.There's no war rules when you fight a Militia....but Israel are a modern army they should haqve way to attack and kill only Hezbollah fighter instead of going over the land at 30000 feets and blow whatever is a suspicious truck or school!

Druid your country is not with Israel just because they are a democracy in fact i'm not even sure your President know what democracy is, cause he don't give a damn about nothing except himself and his rich friend.From who does Israel buy their weapons??
And ignorance is in every country maybe we know a little bit more about the world cause every family in america have TV.

Jack don't be confuse governement don't do things just to help......$$$$$

That's my thoughts!
cya

[pezking]

personally, i dont trust muslims....the Koran basically says that anyone who doesn't believe in their interpretation of God and doesnt want to be converted is scum and should be punished for it.

And Pez like i said before it's not because Hezbollah hide in certain place that you have the right to blow everybody that is around there! When they blow those place they kill catholic too.If everytime they blow a place they would show proof that hezbollah weapon or fighter were there....it might change my point of view.There's no war rules when you fight a Militia....but Israel are a modern army they should haqve way to attack and kill only Hezbollah fighter instead of going over the land at 30000 feets and blow whatever is a suspicious truck or school!

But you're still forgetting the fact that Israel called all the houses and dropped leaflets a week before invading Lebanon, not to mention it was all over the news, that they'd be coming into Lebanon and all civilians w/out relation to Hezbollah should move up 25 miles. When an army is fighting a militia or terrorist organization like Hezbollah, most of the fighters are going to be civilians. So how do you weed out the good ones from the bad? I understand there have been child fatalities but is that because they were children of Hezbollah fighters? Why didn't they leave? Do we blame this on the Lebanese government like how the US govt. got blamed for Katrina last year? How many times did the US govt. have to tell people to get the fuck out of New Orleans because of a big ass hurricane?

All and all, it can all be taken back to the Clerks conversation because Dante and Randall. Were the contractors working on the death star innocent victims of war? Probably not, they chose to be there knowing the risk. This is exactly how I view the deaths of innocents in southern Lebanon. I'm not happy that anyone has to die, but that's just what happens in war.

[Silver]

funny thing this all is... America and israel have a not so close bond as presumed.

America has MADE Israel return territory that it gained over the past conflicts that would have benefited them. parts of Egypt, lebanon etc...

America sells them weapons and military goods to keep them from extermination. they are completely surrounded by countries that want them destroyed, only thing holding that off is American diplomatic and military might.

Israel is made up of a good percentage of x-American citizens. after Israel was given land many American Jews went "home" to Israel. so ties to America are a given.

propaganda is a abundant resource, I have watched countless hours of political BS with the war raging on, and CNN clearly supports anti-American sentiment and FOX news can seem to remove President bush's ass from their lips. so were is the truth?

here it is...

they attacked an military outpost and killed 8 soldiers and took captives. that's an act of war.

[Genocide Junkie]

When Bush claims God is on his side, is that somehow different from Muslim extremists claiming they are doing Allah's will? These Muslim hating people seem to think so. I can't believe we let Israel do whatever they want and claim that a country has a right to protect itself. Does Iraq have a right to protect itself? Sudan?

Bush's goal is not to kill every Muslim in the world no matter if they are "radical" or not. Should the radicals decide to lay down their arms and negotiate instead of blowing up civilians everyday we'd be happy to oblige.
Think about Eric Robert Rudolf. He was a devoted Christian. I don't see you all hating on Christianity because of his actions.

You also saw many Christian leaders condeming this man. Not praising him for being a hero.

The truth is, we took Israel from the Arabs, therefore they are going to hate us and the ones who took their land. We have the resources to keep them at bay, so they are going to kill us the only way they know how. Following teachings of certian scholars of Qu'ran, the wage a Jihad by the sword.

If in fact this is about land why after Isreal gave back Lebanon and Gaza are they still being attacked? It's because they are hated by the Arabs. It never was about land.

I sympathize for Israel and I sympathize for the Arab world. But remember, don't listen to your leaders. People don't act out of pure hate or pure evil, they act through temptation, ignorance, and aggrevation.

There should be no "if you aren't with us, you are against us". Because then suddenly, everyone is the enemy. Just because I sympathize with the Muslim world, doesn't mean I want to go kill Christians or Jews.

It is beyond my realm of understanding how anyone can sympathize with suicidal-infidel killing radicals.

[/color]
Peace through understanding. It's sounds impossible, but a little education goes a long way. Please think about it.

[color="#cc0000"]There is no amount of understanding or reasoning that will make these people stop killing us. None.

[Wotansvolk]

If canadian army call your home Pezz...telling you that there's a militia in the state you live in and we want you to move down south 25 miles so we can blow your house and everything you get what would you do? People don't leave their house and belongings like that when that's all they got! When Katrina struck New Orleans people stayed there cause some of them have no other place to go, their home are their, you can understand that. That border is along Israeli border how come they did'nt sent on foot troop to shoot and kill Hezbollah fighter,,,,just bomb the shit out of them! And our spirit is clean of any culpabilities cause we called them before and drop pamphlet!!


Yeah Silver i'm sure Bush sell them weapon only so they can protect themselves!!LMAO!!
And what is Anti-american sentiment ?.....do you Mean Anti-Republican or Anti-Bush what do you mean by Anti-American?

When Bush claims God is on his side, is that somehow different from Muslim extremists claiming they are doing Allah's will? These Muslim hating people seem to think so. I can't believe we let Israel do whatever they want and claim that a country has a right to protect itself. Does Iraq have a right to protect itself? Sudan?

Bush's goal is not to kill every Muslim in the world no matter if they are "radical" or not.True ...it's more to use other country to get what he want's for his big pockets friends! Should the radicals decide to lay down their arms and negotiate instead of blowing up civilians everyday we'd be happy to oblige.
Think about Eric Robert Rudolf. He was a devoted Christian. I don't see you all hating on Christianity because of his actions.

You also saw many Christian leaders condeming this man. Not praising him for being a hero.

The truth is, we took Israel from the Arabs, therefore they are going to hate us and the ones who took their land. We have the resources to keep them at bay, so they are going to kill us the only way they know how. Following teachings of certian scholars of Qu'ran, the wage a Jihad by the sword.

If in fact this is about land why after Isreal gave back Lebanon and Gaza are they still being attacked? It's because they are hated by the Arabs. It never was about land.I'm not sure but before that land was given to Jews and before The Jews said it was an Israeli territory now, who was living on that territory?

I sympathize for Israel and I sympathize for the Arab world. But remember, don't listen to your leaders. People don't act out of pure hate or pure evil, they act through temptation, ignorance, and aggrevation.

There should be no "if you aren't with us, you are against us". Because then suddenly, everyone is the enemy. Just because I sympathize with the Muslim world, doesn't mean I want to go kill Christians or Jews.

It is beyond my realm of understanding how anyone can sympathize with suicidal-infidel killing radicals.
You generalize a lot man if i would think like you an make my judgement about american by looking at Bush ....i would say american are all Ass**** that don't give a shit about the rest of the world, that every american apply the law when it suits them!

[/color]
Peace through understanding. It's sounds impossible, but a little education goes a long way. Please think about it.

[color="#cc0000"]There is no amount of understanding or reasoning that will make these people stop killing us. None.

[pezking]

This probably sounds like a cop-out, but if a large terrorist organization was operating next to my house and was going to war against Canada, I wouldn't be living here. Exactly what my grandfather did, he grew up in Germany and as Hitler came to power many Germans fled because they didn't agree with the oppressive state. He came to the US and served for the Army during WWII as a tank commander under Patton. 3rdArmy/10th Armored.

I still think the situation over there is different than here, although I appreciate your analogy. Living in a hotbed of the MidEast, people must be used to war and used to moving. If they have issues with what's going on, then maybe they need to stand up to and against Hezbollah oppossed to cheering in the streets for them. Hezbollah is the reason they are being put in harms way. Was Israel attacking Lebanon before Hezbollah kidnapped 2 soldiers and attacked Israel? Nope.

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

This probably sounds like a cop-out, but if a large terrorist organization was operating next to my house and was going to war against Canada, I wouldn't be living here. Exactly what my grandfather did, he grew up in Germany and as Hitler came to power many Germans fled because they didn't agree with the oppressive state. He came to the US and served for the Army during WWII as a tank commander under Patton. 3rdArmy/10th Armored.

I still think the situation over there is different than here, although I appreciate your analogy. Living in a hotbed of the MidEast, people must be used to war and used to moving. If they have issues with what's going on, then maybe they need to stand up to and against Hezbollah oppossed to cheering in the streets for them. Hezbollah is the reason they are being put in harms way. Was Israel attacking Lebanon before Hezbollah kidnapped 2 soldiers and attacked Israel? Nope.

But Israel contines to hold the Sheeba Farms (Lebanon territiory), the Golan Hights (Syria), and of course Palestine. Even after Germany went to war against everyoe in to 40's, today all their land has been returned. Israel would be wise to do the same in return for peace agreements, but instead it seems determined to hold onto "strategic" tracts of land and illegal settlements in violation of UN orders. Israel would have a clear moral highground if these attacks were occuring if land wasn't in dispute and Israel wasn't ignoring UN resolutions that date back 30+ years, but until then their enemies on all sides continue to have legit grievances. Pretending this war was over merely some border incursion several weeks ago ignores the long history of what really is a continuing conflict. In fact, Isreal had been planning this offensive for over a year, and were just waiting for the excuse.

Israel should return the Sheeba (or Cheeba) Farms, move Lebanon prisoners to an International court where they can be tried or released. It is not right to destroy a country because the Israeli border was violated when they continue to hold a piece of the other country against international law.

By the way, I certainly don't expect to change anyone's opinion. I'm sure we've all spent much time developing our own, and hope we can discuss it without it becoming a hatefest, but I just wanted to share some facts as I see them which were being glossed over, or more accurately, not being acknowledged. This war didn' start just several weeks ago. It just got "hot" again.

MoD

[Genocide Junkie]

Bush's goal is not to kill every Muslim in the world no matter if they are "radical" or not.True ...it's more to use other country to get what he want's for his big pockets friends!

Yeah, all the major players are dying for their piece of the rocks and dirt in Afghanistan. Loads of money to be made there. If we are after a country for it's resources i.e. oil and Bush's friends, wouldnt it make sense that we would attack one of the 13 other countries that produce as much as TEN TIMES the amount of oil that Iraq does? i.e. Mexico, Kuwait, Canada, Saudia Arabia 10x's as much, etc. Or maybe, just maybe, we're there because we're liberating a people who have been oppressed and killed by their leader for 30 yrs. It's not just about Bush. We have a congress that voted to go to war and then voted to fund that war. I'm sick of hearing about how we're evil. We should withdraw from every country on the planet and let them protect themselves. Europe could be speaking German right now. North Korea could destroy South Korea. Kuwait could be ruled by Sadam. Afghanistan would be communist. Forget all these countries we feed, protect, and rescue from debt. They all turn around and hate our guts because we protect our interests. It's ridiculous. We've never occupied a country for the sake of imperialism. Never.

[CommanderChoth]

I don't mean to be harsh, but I pity you all who think you can't trust Muslims or believe that they all support terrorism. I said I sympathize with Muslims, not with any extremists of any kind, Christian or otherwise. The truth is, the Muslim community does shun what suicide bombers do. Please, don't confuse a nation with a religion...that is a dangerous thought. I suppose you don't get your information from anything but the news. Don't trust the news. Especially don't trust Fox news.

I live and work around Muslim families. They despise these radicals. Even our dumbass presdient said to respect the nation of Islam after Semptember 11th as to not foster hate (I suppose later he went back on this, as it helped him invade Iraq).

The fact is, Imperialism in the traditional sense is dead or dying. The true way to conquer the world is through economic control. Invade Saudi Arabia? Not a chance. You really think we want a free trade system there? Say goodbye to our oil! China is willing to pay a lot more for their oil than we are. As long as we keep the relationship alive, our leaders with their hands in the big oil business, positive relations with the Saudis, oh man, we got ourselves a sweet deal.

Ever wonder why oil companies recorded record profits?

I myself would like to think that we protect the world. I suppose we do at times, but usually it's at our interest. Darfur region of Sudan anyone? Look it up. And ask, why aren't we stopping that?

I respect your opinions. I however, don't respect religious intolerance. I hope to share for a better understanding.

[Leadmagnet]

I don't mean to be harsh, but I pity you all who think you can't trust Muslims or believe that they all support terrorism. I said I sympathize with Muslims, not with any extremists of any kind, Christian or otherwise. The truth is, the Muslim community does shun what suicide bombers do. Please, don't confuse a nation with a religion...that is a dangerous thought. I suppose you don't get your information from anything but the news. Don't trust the news. Especially don't trust Fox news.

I live and work around Muslim families. They despise these radicals. Even our dumbass presdient said to respect the nation of Islam after Semptember 11th as to not foster hate (I suppose later he went back on this, as it helped him invade Iraq).

The fact is, Imperialism in the traditional sense is dead or dying. The true way to conquer the world is through economic control. Invade Saudi Arabia? Not a chance. You really think we want a free trade system there? Say goodbye to our oil! China is willing to pay a lot more for their oil than we are. As long as we keep the relationship alive, our leaders with their hands in the big oil business, positive relations with the Saudis, oh man, we got ourselves a sweet deal.

Ever wonder why oil companies recorded record profits?

I myself would like to think that we protect the world. I suppose we do at times, but usually it's at our interest. Darfur region of Sudan anyone? Look it up. And ask, why aren't we stopping that?

I respect your opinions. I however, don't respect religious intolerance. I hope to share for a better understanding.

Choth, I pity you....you are young and naive....there are these nice things that you get taught in school by lefties who want to make you feel like a villain when we talk about our foreign policy and our goals.

We aren't the Federation from Star Trek, we aren't a democracy really, we are a REPUBLIC. We strive for democracy, but it doesnt work: people....i am sorry, sheeeple are swayed by public opinion (the media) and with the exception of Fox, its Left Wing all the way (like Cronkite in Vietnam), and our universities and high schools are full of former radicals who have not only tenure but probably are heads of departments now for at least the social sciences and arts. So thats why Berzerkley and other institutions are making studying the Koran a part of the curiculum. Notice they don't include the Torah or Buddist or Confucious Texts, mind you...

Our interests, our goals are tied with our friends and resources. We don't have a lot of friends in Africa. Logistically, Africa is very difficult to get to (in and out of, really). With the exception of the Mediterranean Africa (north of the Sahara) and South Africa, and to some extent Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana and Ivory Coast, the rest of the countries in Africa have pretty primitive transportation grids. When you throw in the effects of a couple of civil wars and strife, it gets pretty unworkable. Look at the logistical problems with Katrina, and that was in our own frickin country. When you do have reliable roads to transport goods to markets, thats a problem. When you don't have port facilities that can move containers from ships and load them on to non-existent rail or Big Trucks, thats a problem. When you don't have natural gas or Petroleum storage facilities to stockpile energy supplies, thats a problem. The problem in the Sudan is not new, and it really isnt our problem, because they arent our friends, or provide resources to us. But yes, we do provide them food through the Red Cross and the UN, and if we get a Democratic Lefty in the White House, we send Marines over to guard the Grain shipments that we drop by air (very expensive to transport stuff by air and very cost inefficient).

We feed much of the world, and thankfully, most of those supplies actually get where they are supposed to go. For backward (developing....HA HA HA) nations, the stark reality is that they can't figure the "lets stop fighting and build a nice place for our children to grow and thrive in" theory yet.

Leadmagnet


PS. Who do you think drilled those oil wells in the Desert? We did. Standard Oil did. That's our oil....they just control the land....

[Wotansvolk]

Bush's goal is not to kill every Muslim in the world no matter if they are "radical" or not.True ...it's more to use other country to get what he want's for his big pockets friends!

Yeah, all the major players are dying for their piece of the rocks and dirt in Afghanistan. Loads of money to be made there. If we are after a country for it's resources i.e. oil and Bush's friends, wouldnt it make sense that we would attack one of the 13 other countries that produce as much as TEN TIMES the amount of oil that Iraq does? i.e. Mexico, Kuwait, Canada, Saudia Arabia 10x's as much, etc. Or maybe, just maybe, we're there because we're liberating a people who have been oppressed and killed by their leader for 30 yrs. It's not just about Bush. We have a congress that voted to go to war and then voted to fund that war. I'm sick of hearing about how we're evil. We should withdraw from every country on the planet and let them protect themselves. Europe could be speaking German right now. North Korea could destroy South Korea. Kuwait could be ruled by Sadam. Afghanistan would be communist. Forget all these countries we feed, protect, and rescue from debt. They all turn around and hate our guts because we protect our interests. It's ridiculous. We've never occupied a country for the sake of imperialism. Never.

Your governement just do what is best for him..not for others. The only fact i can talk to you about is the softwood trade dispute..cause i work in the lumber business. Your governement signed the agreement about free trade and opening the frontier ...but guess what Mr.Bush have took the decision to tax Canadian Lumber. He had many rulings against him saying he does'nt have the right to tax that product but he does'nt give a shit even the Us court of international trade gave a judgement against the US...your own court But good Mr. Bush don't give a damn he want's the money of other country to pay for His war and to give back to his friends who own the mills in the north of the states! But guess what it's the people of the US who pay for that tax cause every mills put the price of the duty in their selling price! So your governement is taxing you and you don't even know it.The price of lumber have rised since 2 years of almost 75%, but hey Bush is there for you man!

Do you think when your first soldier got to Afghan, Bush was'nt thinking about Iraq?
They had a good "social" reason to go to Irak ...remember those Weapons of mass destruction?

I'm not saying Americans are evil i don't generalise like some do...saying that all muslim are tickin bomb.I'm talking about the actual US government!

You don't have to occupied a country to get what you want, just put embargo's or a tax on the product you are importating.

You really believe you are in Iraq cause of Saddam!!!
I tell you again everything in there is about the governement, i love americans i talk with americans from CT too FL and TX. And i have always meet great people in the states!

You say US saved country from their debt....do you know what your debt is in the US?
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html
C ya!

[CommanderChoth]

Leadmagnet:

You are absolutely right. I agree with the majority of what you said. I know I am naive to believe that education is the key to understanding (not neccessarily the education system). Most of my understanding of religion and politics comes from reading different sources. I'd say I have Liberal foreign policy, but am otherwise moderate.

I know how politics work, and my main point is that we are only going to assist those in which we are interested. I simply hope to destroy this idea that we really are the "world police", and reinforce our strive for economic imperalism.

We are making sure we keep the oil out of the hands of China. Standard oil, like you said.

All I want is for people to see both sides of an issue! That's all, and maybe, just maybe they can understand. I just want people to realize that no group of people is pure evil or acts out of unprovoked spite. When you said muslims can't be trusted, it set off an alarm in my head. The old relgious texts, the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, writings by Easter philosphers, are all gifts to the world that strive to teach us of this tolerance. We are all so busy trying to figure out who is right, we forget what they really mean!

Just a general question directed toward everyone: You think this is what Muhammed wanted? You think this is what Jesus wanted?

If you say yes, God have mercy on your soul.

Lead, that's all I want, pity was the wrong word I guess. I just hope that one day you will able to trust the nation of Islam.

PS. I'm young so I'm indestructable

[Genocide Junkie]

My intolerance is not for any religion. You are free to believe what you like. You can worship the little green men on mars if that's what you want. If you live peacefully I have no problem with you. If there is such outrage in the Muslim community around the world why don't they riot in the streets? We never see that. We see plenty of riots hating us wanting us dead. Why arent these radicals kicked out of mosques? Why don't the others stand up against these people? Why do the countries where this takes place not stand up against this hatred? We in this country now have plenty of reason to "hate" this group of ppl. However, you don't see on the news where "Bubba" suicide bombed a mosque in Denver. Or "Tyrone" hijacked a taxi and crashed it in to a quicky mart. Who said anything about free trade in Saudi Arabia? We just take what we want for our gain. We'll have all the oil we need for our oil companies. Remember Bush and his "deep pocketed friends"? Why do we support Isreal? They don't have any oil. What are we to gain from keeping them safe? Want insight into the way these ppl think read the article by Jill Caroll who was abducted in Iraq. The abductors were teaching their 5 yr old son to be a "Mujahid" or holy warrior. That has nothing to do with oil and everything to do with religion. Where are the outraged muslims in those countries? Where are the governments? Why is this taught in their schools? Our oil companies have record profits because we keep paying for the oil. It's basic economics supply and demand. Quit buying it and they will lower the price. Are they corupt? You betcha. Along with every other entity who has money or wishes to attain it. We can go on forever about this... so everyone go on worship who or what you like. But when someone starts bombing in the name of your god stand up for what is right. Is that unreasonable?

Your governement just do what is best for him..not for others. The only fact i can talk to you about is the softwood trade dispute..cause i work in the lumber business. Your governement signed the agreement about free trade and opening the frontier ...but guess what Mr.Bush have took the decision to tax Canadian Lumber. He had many rulings against him saying he does'nt have the right to tax that product but he does'nt give a shit even the Us court of international trade gave a judgement against the US...your own court But good Mr. Bush don't give a damn he want's the money of other country to pay for His war and to give back to his friends who own the mills in the north of the states! But guess what it's the people of the US who pay for that tax cause every mills put the price of the duty in their selling price! So your governement is taxing you and you don't even know it.The price of lumber have rised since 2 years of almost 75%, but hey Bush is there for you man!

Do you think when your first soldier got to Afghan, Bush was'nt thinking about Iraq?
They had a good "social" reason to go to Irak ...remember those Weapons of mass destruction?

I'm not saying Americans are evil i don't generalise like some do...saying that all muslim are tickin bomb.I'm talking about the actual US government!

You don't have to occupied a country to get what you want, just put embargo's or a tax on the product you are importating.

You really believe you are in Iraq cause of Saddam!!!
I tell you again everything in there is about the governement, i love americans i talk with americans from CT too FL and TX. And i have always meet great people in the states!

You say US saved country from their debt....do you know what your debt is in the US?
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html
C ya!

Bush cannot issue a tax. Taxes are issued by congress via laws voted upon by both houses. This is not done by one Mr. Bush.