What's Wacko about Sicko, Socialized Medicine? Options

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

September 4, 2007

Michael Moore wants socialized medicine in the United States. It would, as his film Sicko suggests, give us a system that better delivers health care to those who need it. Although Moore effectively documents some deficiencies in American health care, his message is undermined by misinformation, inconsistent rhetoric, and a disingenuous agenda. Moore's plan would result in worse, not better, health outcomes for Americans — including the poor and underserved.



As a hand surgeon who treats many traumatic injuries, Moore's portrayal of a patient who amputated his middle fingertip captured my interest. He depicted this uninsured man as required to pay $23,000 to have his finger "saved." Moore lost considerable credibility here. Most hand surgeons would never consider micro-surgically replanting this table saw injury at the finger nail base. Rather, this unfortunate injury would have been comfortably and safely treated — without reattachment of the severed bit of finger — in an office procedure room for $1,000 or less.



In Sicko, Moore consistently equated lack of insurance with inability to obtain care. In Grand Rapids, Mich., where I practice, a sign on the front door of Blodgett hospital, in English and Spanish, indicates patients will not be turned away for lack of ability to pay. This is policy across the United States.

We hear a lot about the nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance. However, approximately half of them are insured six months later with new jobs, suggesting more of a problem with our employer based health care system than with affordability.



Moore harshly criticizes the U.S. government. Yet he is arguing for a centrally controlled allocation of health care resources. Who does he want to run health care in this country? Medical resources are not unlimited. The combination of aging demographics, technological advances and unconstrained consumption within our third party payment system has led to an unsustainable trajectory of ever increasing spending. It is already clear that price controls have created strong disincentives to debt-burdened students considering careers in primary care. Yet Sicko gives market oriented solutions no consideration.



Three individuals with ailments after admirably serving in New York rescue and recovery efforts after September 11, 2001, were transparently used in Sicko to promote Moore's agenda. This manipulation was as revolting as the stories of individuals egregiously denied care by insurance companies. Transported to Cuba, the three 9-11 patients were shown to Cuban doctors who (while cameras were rolling) appeared more than happy to provide care and subsidized prescriptions. This contrasted with a California hospital denying care to a child with a severe infection and a sick, elderly woman dropped off by a taxi in front of a rescue mission while still in her hospital gown. The latter two tragic situations were portrayed as illustrative examples of our domestic medical system.

There is no question we need major improvement in U.S. health care. To use a few outrageous anecdotes to argue for a socialized solution, however, is a non-sequitur. Despite ostensibly compassionate intentions on the part of its backers, greater harm would result from centrally planned and controlled health care. Canada and the United Kingdom provide contemporary models: rationing occurs by decree and delay. Even the Canadian Supreme Court, when ruling against Canada's single-payer law prohibiting private payment for health care in 2006, stated, "access to a waiting list is not access to health care ... in some cases patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care ... and many patients on non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real quality of life."



Pope Benedict XVI wrote in his recent encyclical Deus Caritas Est, "We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need." Moore and his allies would do well to take this exhortation to heart. We now have unsustainable consumption of medical resources, with third party responsibility for health care expenses. A socialized system would increase state dependency and diminish motivation for charity. Greater government bureaucracy would increase inefficiency and waste compared to doctor-patient "two-party" interaction. Socialized medicine violates the social justice principle of subsidiarity by interfering with the family, churches, charitable clinics, and other intermediate organizations attending to those who are most in need.



The common good would be better served with medical insurance purchased, like other insurance, outside the workplace. Tax law changes could help improve insurance portability and affordability. Insurance industry reform, including measures increasing inter-state competition, could decrease premium cost. Greater competition from patients directly paying premiums would lead to stronger demands for quality and less egregious denials of care. With improved alignment of responsibility for personal health choices and medical care consumption, scarce health care resource allocation would improve. There is significant opportunity for recovery. Market oriented reforms, with compassionate consideration for those without means, deserve far greater consideration than Sicko's deceptive solution.



Dr. Donald P. Condit is an orthopaedic surgeon specializing in hand surgery in Grand Rapids, Mich. He also holds an MBA degree from the Seidman School of Business at Grand Valley State University.

(This article is a product of the Acton Institute — www.acton.org, 161 Ottawa NW, Suite 301, Grand Rapids, MI 49503 — and is reprinted with permission.)

[Genocide Junkie]

But we're entitled to "free" health care aren't we? Just like we are entitled to Social Security, Medicare, and every other government program that continues to not work... Hooray Socialism.

[flatliner]

Government programs include education....

[UNDEAD 1]

i think the problems lie with doctors over charging the insurance companies,for instance ,if your paying cash a procedure would be say $50 but if you have insurance theyll charge $150. my wife works with a chiropractor and oh boy,do they make out.dentists will charge $50 if your late for your appointment and more if you miss it .

i just think its careless the insurance cos dont have people to audit the doctors.

[{CuF}crazycanuck]

we have universal health care in Canada. Although it is a definit bonus being able to have free health care let me fill you in on a few details from a country that has it...

#1) your physicians better be ready to take a possible paycut because through this system the government will allocate funds to there salaries and it will probabaly be tightly controlled. This is the reason why we are losing new physicians to the U.S they can make more money.

#2) be prepared for tax hikes and some of the things you can write off goodbye. Taxes here in Canada are some of thje highest in the world to pay for free health care. persoanlly last year i payed almost 45% of my income to taxes. Being able to have a broken arm fixed up for free has to cost someone and you do pay. i have an extra 800 bucks last year tacked on to my provincial taxes as a health care premium. plus we pay 14 % taxes on our purchases..(.6% gst tax, 8% pst tax),ohhh by the way did you know that gst is even payed on services,,,aka FUNERALS AND CAR REPAIRS to name a few, and if you dare have a beer at a bar you also pay 10% booze tax on top of this. Ever payed 10 dollars for a pack of smokes(ya, ya i know,,shush...lol) if you smoke up here you do...for a few examples of the extra costs to pay for this system.

3) you may already have this, but we have places in ontario that are horribly underserviced because of the doctor shortage. a new doctors office opened up in Kitchener and they had 1300 spaces for new patients..the spaces filled in 45 minutes.

free health care does have a lot of advantages, but it comes with a lot of hidden nasties that the public doesn't realize and should be prepared for as i said higher taxes and new taxes are a possibility. remeber it still has to be payed for. some of the private hospitals may have to switch to government control and you may lose some very good facilities. The standard of care will be set by the government, be prepared for sometimes VERY long waits at the emergency room. we have emergency rooms closing because they do not have the funds to pay for the services in there budgets. In stratford our hospital closed 30 beds because they had to balance the budget..so kiss the ability to have 30 people helped out the window.

Ambulances are constatntly redirected from hospital to hospital in some cities like toronto..too busy and cannot take the patient. there are communities that have no doctors at all..my friend lives in a northern community and the yearly check up for him and the wife includes three days off work and a two night hotel stay and a 7 hour commute either way.As he says its a lot of time and money to have doctor long fingers check his colon once a year..

We have nurses that get laid off..seriously ..NURSES LAID OFF not because of lack of work..heck no.no money in the provincially allocated budget to that hospital to pay wages...

and don't forget you still pay out of your own pocket(here we do) for dental,eye care, and other specialized services.

Once a system is free its open to abuse as well, like people feeling it nessesary to take little timmy to the emergency room because he has the sniffles and if you don't have a family doctor and a clinic isn't close by then the emergency room becomes your doctor, again causing at times major backups and the hospital prioritizing your problem..i sat in Fergus with a broken hand for over 7 hours waiting..and the nurse could only give me tylenol and a pillow for my hand because others were "prioritized" higher then me. talk about a long painful wait..my hand swelled huge during this wait and i had to be sent home to get the swelling down before they could do anything..

so bad parts..my hand was broken and twisted and extremely painful and it stayed like that with litle help for 17 hours before i went back the next day when immediate teatment would have avaoided this..
good parts i didn't get a bill for the services.

so theres my two cents..ok more then two cents.

This post has been edited by {CuF}crazycanuck: 09/06/07 5:58am

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

That's some great and honest input Canuck!! You points only illustrate why the USA has the best and most advanced healthcare in the world.
(It has some issues of course that needed improved of course.)
The reason our economy works so well is competition. Everyday we have to get up and go to our jobs and do a good days work or we risk losing our job. What's more if you do great work you can triple your earnings with promotions and what not.

Why would we not want more competition in the health care world? It only makes health care better. Having the goverment control this is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Capt. Andtennille]

... Having the goverment control this is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to see what government run healthcare would look like, head down to your local Motor Vehicle department.

[UNDEAD 1]

First off we already have govt run health care ,you should go down there and take a look,its disgusting. if you or i ever got sick they wouldnt take us because we most likely made to much a year,im sure most of us make more than 35 k. im sure most people who live in the united states can afford $950. a month for half decent insurance for a small family of two adults and one child even though it is MORE than your mortgage payment a month.



i dont like michael moore and i have only seen bits and pieces of the movie but some of the scenes that really ticked me off were insurance cos finding loop holes to NOT pay someones medical bills when they were sick,the last thing i want to do when i have cancer is get a lwayer. i dont have confidence in our health care if i pay an arm and a leg to be insured for 20 years and then when i get sick they say "woops,you missed line 20" and i dont get funded and within 5 minutes the hospital says ,"you gotta go,lol"



what i see for the future of this country is this,you have an economy that is starting to take a turn for the worse and as things tighten up a little your going to see less people being able to pay for health insurance. i personaly do not think government run health care is the answer ,i do however think our system can run more effeciently and our government could be more stern with the insurance companies which have to many freedoms to do whatever the f they want.

This post has been edited by UNDEAD 1: 09/06/07 10:56am

[Barkmann]

Free health care in Canada? As Canadians we still have to pay for it, its called taxes.

And are health care system is not that good now since we have too maney ppl now.

More doctor are leaving to go to work in the US. Hospitals are low on beds, doctors, in Toronto we cant even get a bloody MIR machine [gov't too cheap to get one] we have to fix the system. We need more doctors more beds more machines to help the sick.

I got hurt at work one night went to the hospital and waiting something like 6 bloody hours to see a doctor.

Then theres stories about ppl dieing befor they get into the hospital, because they get turn away.

I dont know how it is across Canada but i do know how it is here in Torornto/Ontario

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

Free health care in Canada? As Canadians we still have to pay for it, its called taxes.

And are health care system is not that good now since we have too maney ppl now.

More doctor are leaving to go to work in the US. Hospitals are low on beds, doctors, in Toronto we cant even get a bloody MIR machine [gov't too cheap to get one] we have to fix the system. We need more doctors more beds more machines to help the sick.

I got hurt at work one night went to the hospital and waiting something like 6 bloody hours to see a doctor.

Then theres stories about ppl dieing befor they get into the hospital, because they get turn away.

I dont know how it is across Canada but i do know how it is here in Torornto/Ontario

I live in PEI and even work in a hosptial, and it is really good here. Not perfect mind you, but overall excellent care, people leave pleased and happy, and no one, rich or poor, has to wiegh the pros and cons about going to a hospital to get a potentially severe issue looked at because on concerns about cost. In Canada, health care is a right, not a privledge. I prefer it that way.

And if anyone ever want to come take a tour of the hospital I work at, I'd be pleased to show you. It is new, sparkling clean, and well run.

Also, the reason Toronto/Ontario might be spreading it's money too thin in health care might have to do with the fact they have the lowest taxes in Canada after many cuts in the 90's, aside from uber-rich Alberta. Yes, health care costs money. But provinces can buy equipment, drugs, etc. at far reduced rates thanks to economies of scale than a million HMO's can in the US, which also scoop their profits off the top. That why Canadians pay far less ever for paid prescription drugs than actual Americans do, even for drugs MADE in AMERICA! That's the "free market" for you...but it's not working for the average American...it's working for their drug companies though. In term of percentage of our GDP, Canada pays far less than the US for it's overal health care costs. Places like Ontario could put more money in and fix those issues, and still face less cost overall than the US pays out, even though 20% of US citizens aren't even covered.

However, if Americans don't want medicare and don't care that at any time 1 in 6 Americans faces financial ruin, or worse, if something serious happens, that is certainly their right. I will just say that I like Canada's system and wish it to remain, and believe there's enough money to go around to afford to fix any issue in certain areas. Unlike some other countries, Canada consistently has surpluses and can direct more money to fix issues if it wishes. That's what I'd prefer. Most every European country is public as well, and face lower wait times than the US and Canada. Canada can fix it's issues with a little more money (including money for doctors), and still pay less per ratio of GDP than the States. Oh, and cover all it's citizens, rich, poor, recently jobless, children...everyone. That's a part of Canada I like and am proud of.

This post has been edited by M@ster of Dis@ster: 09/06/07 5:05pm

[Blitz]

Nothing in life is ever free!

The socalist systems around the world take from each according to their abilities and give to each according to thier need. (Taxes)

I would much rather be responsible for myself and my family rather than have some gov't. official look after my well being and tell me what I need.

Ask yourself why flu vaccacines run dry when needed the most.... Hillary care is the answer. The gowernment used their huge "buying power" to set the prices. Funny thing is they set the prices low enough that all but the largest few companies can now make the drigs at a profit, the rest of the evil companies quit and went on to produce more profitable drugs or closed. How many people end up in the hospital because of this? Ahhh but if you are a member of the govenment you will get your shot because the people need you.

Anyone remember privatizing SS. I sure do, I ran my own buisness for 9 years so I had the added benefit of paying double. The funny thing about economics and compound interest is that money tends to double every seven years... (the rule of 72)

Example if your SS statement said that you had $50,000 in it say at the age of 35 the payout would be as follows.
35 yrs = $50,000
42 yrs = $100,000
49 yrs = $200,000
56 yrs = $400,000
63 yrs = $800,000
70 yrs = $1,600,000

That's without putting another dime in! Having the ability to take some money out and enjoy prior to dying, having money left to leave to wife, kids, family!

BUT NO, i would never want to privatize this and be responsible... I just can't handle the responsibility (*sarcasam off*)

I look at Health Care like SS, anything the government want's to get involved they are doing for their own benefit to use this power to buy votes and stay in power.
Does, scare the elderly come election time sound familiar to anyone? This is just with Medicare, Imagine once they have everyone divided into nice little groups.

Sorry to vent this stuff drives me crazy!

The economic saftey net has become a hammock!

[Genocide Junkie]

Part of the problem is the liability that the doctors carry and have to charge for. We have too many lawsuits over minor mistakes. Another issue is that the doctors are slaves to the insurance companies. I had my family doctor explain it like this. He charges $80 for a visit. Which is what he needs to make to make a good living and pay for everything. So Blue Cross says we'll pay you $65 of this. So next year he raises his fee to $85 because the insurance companies will raise the amount as the "reasonable and customary" amount goes up. So you have this cycle of raising prices which drives up costs of insurance which causes less people to have insurance which causes more people to not have it. Which causes doctors to charge more to people who do have it.... it goes on and on. I'm not sure what the answer is but we have to get the Insurance companies out of the loop some how. One more thing. Many of you know my dad (Hemlock) has severe back problems. The doctors won't treat pain. They don't make money off of it. The pain clinics want to run you through $10,000 of procedures that don't really help instead of a $50 prescription. Both of those take the doctor the same time so why would he do what is best for the patient?

[Blitz]

I agree that insurance companies are a large part of the problem.

Just put it into perspective, how many people actually shop around for medical insurance like you would with your auto and home?

I would assume that the majority of policies are from an employeer with employee deductions. Now if your going to be the person selling the policy to the company, you have to lower your rates to get the sale. This savings will most likely not come off the bottom line.

But if you cut a few corners about what you allow and what you don't well the person writing the checks will most likely never know. They know how much money they saved.

Put the shoe on the other foot, if you had the ability to keep the monies that your company paid towards insurance and shop around to multiple insurance companies they would have to start to cater to you the individual.

Medical care is a very personel matter, but it is done in a very impersonel way in a lot of respects. This IMOP is because the whole personel responsibility issue is missing from the equation.

[UNDEAD 1]

for the record i agree with your original post towards michael moore as he stirs up shit to get a movie at others expense.i would like to see a insurance/med reform of some sort though but im 37 and probably wont live to see that.

[Cross of Iron]

The UK does have a "free health care" and its crap....you have to wait up to 6 -8 hours to see a nurse ,who then tells you ,you have to wait afurther 3 hours to see the doctor, who then tells you to go see your own doctor ,and not come to the hospital ....Well thats ok ,IF you have your own doctor ,but with ALL doctors trying to go private now its hard....OOHHH yes the govenment say that there have to free healthcare doctors ,but when they open their doors ,they are ALREADY filled up ,due to the overdemaned for them.



The wages the hospital staff have are crap ,so they end up going to Auss ,USA or somewhere in Europe.The hospitals have very limited security ,so therefore the staff get attacked alot (another reason they leave), the wards are dreadful ,paint peeling from walls and (in some cases mould on the walls)

When my wife was in hospital having our son ,she came home with a bad cold ,that was a result of limited heating in the wards ,because of cutbacks.



You have to wait up to,and including ,7 months for a minor op ,and up to 2 years for a major op....reason being that they hope you die BEFORE you have it ,that way they might get more govenment funding.

The ambulances have to get to a call in a certain time frame ,or the local health care that runs them are fined...this you might say is a good thing...well last year there were over 25 crashes with ambulances because they were told to rush to a scene or they would have thier govenment funding reduced....(so yer good one that )



Both my in-laws are nurses at hospitals in Southampton UK ,and they both hate their jobs ,because its all about politics and not helping pateints...they feel like they are not doing what they waited to do anymore ,and who blames them really.

I also worked as a nurse assistant in a mental health hospital the RSH in Southampton,that had free healthcare doctors ,just that they never really cared for the patients ,as they were to busy worring about their PRIVATE ones.(another reason why the staff leave)

And ,yes you could go PRIVATE and have your health care done that way ,but when an operation to have yer galstones removed costs upwards of $35,000 who wants to ,or can afford it.



Then to top it all ,we get an estimated 125,000 illegal immigrants a year in the UK ,and ALL of them get free healthcare ,as the govenment say its helping our fellow countries out.



So do you really think having a "free healthcare is good ????) I DIDN`T THINK SO.