What's Wacko about Sicko, Socialized Medicine? Options

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

The UK does have a "free health care" and its crap....you have to wait up to 6 -8 hours to see a nurse ,who then tells you ,you have to wait afurther 3 hours to see the doctor, who then tells you to go see your own doctor ,and not come to the hospital ....Well thats ok ,IF you have your own doctor ,but with ALL doctors trying to go private now its hard....OOHHH yes the govenment say that there have to free healthcare doctors ,but when they open their doors ,they are ALREADY filled up ,due to the overdemaned for them.



The wages the hospital staff have are crap ,so they end up going to Auss ,USA or somewhere in Europe.The hospitals have very limited security ,so therefore the staff get attacked alot (another reason they leave), the wards are dreadful ,paint peeling from walls and (in some cases mould on the walls)

When my wife was in hospital having our son ,she came home with a bad cold ,that was a result of limited heating in the wards ,because of cutbacks.



You have to wait up to,and including ,7 months for a minor op ,and up to 2 years for a major op....reason being that they hope you die BEFORE you have it ,that way they might get more govenment funding.

The ambulances have to get to a call in a certain time frame ,or the local health care that runs them are fined...this you might say is a good thing...well last year there were over 25 crashes with ambulances because they were told to rush to a scene or they would have thier govenment funding reduced....(so yer good one that )



Both my in-laws are nurses at hospitals in Southampton UK ,and they both hate their jobs ,because its all about politics and not helping pateints...they feel like they are not doing what they waited to do anymore ,and who blames them really.

I also worked as a nurse assistant in a mental health hospital the RSH in Southampton,that had free healthcare doctors ,just that they never really cared for the patients ,as they were to busy worring about their PRIVATE ones.(another reason why the staff leave)

And ,yes you could go PRIVATE and have your health care done that way ,but when an operation to have yer galstones removed costs upwards of $35,000 who wants to ,or can afford it.



Then to top it all ,we get an estimated 125,000 illegal immigrants a year in the UK ,and ALL of them get free healthcare ,as the govenment say its helping our fellow countries out.



So do you really think having a "free healthcare is good ????) I DIDN`T THINK SO.

THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.



This post has been edited by M@ster of Dis@ster: 09/07/07 7:35am

[Capt. Andtennille]

THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.

Absolutely correct. EVERYONE should have crappy healthcare.

[T/A6Pak]

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak

[M@ster of Dis@ster]

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak

I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.

IMO, the problem is we cut budgets to health care during the deficit reducing 90's, but haven't re-established spending now that we're in surplus.

And at the end of the day, I'd still say we get darn good health care for the majority even if it is underfunded somewhat. We still beat American life expectancy by about 2 years. Although there is many factors involved, we're similar countries, similar cultures, diets, work schedules, etc, so I think this is relavant.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm

This post has been edited by M@ster of Dis@ster: 09/19/07 2:42pm

[Keystone Two-Eight]

September 4, 2007
Michael Moore wants

That's all you have to say S.R. and I think the rest will fall into place. .

[Cpt. Snot Rocket]

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak

I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.

I think your confusing some things MoD. The GDP is the total dollar value of all goods and services PRODUCED. That is how much money the Health industry generates, not the amount of money the US Goverment or US Citezens spend on health care. There is a disctinct diffence. Pharmaceuticals, Equipment and Services that are sold from the US tothe world also go into the GDP.



And by the way there are far fewer than 1/5th of the US that is uninsured. Take Hillary Clinton claim that 50Million Amercans are uninsured. That INCLUDES about 15MIllion "Illegal Aliens"!!! And aslo another 5 to 6 million that us Medicare but only file when they need it. When they don't they are listed as uninsured. The real number is likely around 20Million people out of 300Million population.



This post has been edited by Cpt. Snot Rocket: 09/20/07 5:34pm

[Capt. Andtennille]

A big problem with the Canadian health care is that doctors are capped on there income. So why stay here and make only a certain amount a year when you can go to the states and double your income. So all the great doctors leave, who can blame them.

Several doctors in Ontario only have office hours 4 days a week, due to the fact that after that they are at there max.. so then you have more people going to the ER that really don't need to be there. Which leads to overcrowding and long waits at the hospital.

There is a min 4 month wait for an MRI in Windsor, unless you are an emergency case or have connections. It takes up to a year to see a neuro-surgeon.. unless you have connections or are an emergency (life/death) case. Being told that you cannot hit your head or get rear ended or you will probably be paralyzed for life is not an emergency case.

Think about it... first 4 months waiting to get your MRI then another year to see the neuro-surgeon, from the inital time that is probably 1 1/2 years. Wow, great system. When I went to see a neuro-surgeon in London in July he wanted me to go for a discogram test prior to surgery. This appointment is at the end of November this year. I asked to be put on the cancellation list, I call every week with negative results.

I understand that several people are put in financial situations due to the cost of healt care in the US, but at the end of the day.. You have the best doctors in the world, to me that's worth it's weight in Gold.

You pay one way or the other, I would rather pay financially than with my life.

T/A6Pak

I'll say it again, I think the only problem here is we've underfunding it.

"According to World Health Organization (WHO) 2001 statistics, Canada's total expenditure on health as an expenditure of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 9.5%. This can be compared with 13.9% in the United States and 7.6% in the United Kingdom. And Canada ranks 30th on the WHO's year 2000 report on the cost effectiveness of global healthcare."

We're spending almost 50% less than the US, even as they don't cover 1/5th to 1/6th of their population at any given time. I'd suspect that if we even brought our spending up to 12% fo GDP, we'd take care of the wait time which generally are in diagnostic imaging and a few specialized areas.

I think your confusing some things MoD. The GDP is the total dollar value of all goods and services PRODUCED. That is how much money the Health industry generates, not the amount of money the US Goverment or US Citezens spend on health care. There is a disctinct diffence. Pharmaceuticals, Equipment and Services that are sold from the US tothe world also go into the GDP.



And by the way there are far fewer than 1/5th of the US that is uninsured. Take Hillary Clinton claim that 50Million Amercans are uninsured. That INCLUDES about 15MIllion "Illegal Aliens"!!! And aslo another 5 to 6 million that us Medicare but only file when they need it. When they don't they are listed as uninsured. The real number is likely around 20Million people out of 300Million population.

And "uninsured" does not mean untreated. Anyone can walk into an emergency room and get treatment even if they don't have insurance.

I've never understood how anyone who's ever been down to the Department Of Motor Vehicles would ever want the government to run anything. Want better health care in the U.S.? Pass Tort reform so doctors can practice medicine without all of the frivilous lawsuits. That includes the pharmecutical companies. One of the reasons that medicine is so expensive in the U.S. is that the cost of lawsuits is much higher here.

MoD is very much in favor of the U.S. getting socialized health care, yet he constantly points out that the government doesn't do anything right. I guess the reason that Communism has failed every time it's been tried is that the right people weren't running it. LOL

[Hellfighter]

THe problem in the UK is they mixed public and private. So doctors go to private, leaving the public system with no doctors. From what I've read, Britian is often used as the example of why we (Canada) should never try a public/private mix. It leads to the disasterous situations you describe where doctors practicing in both offer better care to those who pay the big bucks than to those who are in the public system.

Absolutely correct. EVERYONE should have crappy healthcare.

Uninsured may mean not untreated in the USA, but true or not->peoples lives are in jeopardy when that uninsured visit is a very long wait or not the best treatment.

Why do you always speak from a pulpit preaching without any knowledge of your sermon.....
Our [Canadian] health sytem is stretched but everyone gets a fair shake when push comes to shove in terms of not being in want of some decent health care.
I'll give you an example of our [Canada's] crappy health care system.

2 years ago a friend of mine in his 50s wonders why he's progreesively getting tired walking about- he goes in for his FREE check-up. Doctor runs tests on him. Doctor tells my friend [orders almost] to get checked into hospital right away - Within 3 days he has undergone a major heart surgery. Walks out of hospital a few weeks later- no more tiredness. The surgery was free-FREE; His life was saved- Expert and careful analysis by the doctor saved his life - Now I'm not sure where 'CRAPPY' comes into that equation according to 'oh so enlightened you'.
And all my friend is paying for now is blood pressure medication.....

You can bicker your deluded dreams all you want about our system up here without even having visited here, but your opinions seem ridiculous when you call it communism. We vote up here, we have much in common in culture and society set-up as the USA- US Visitors coming up here enjoy our culture and see we have alot in common- The only too-true complaint is our heavy taxes. What's the trade off?- Things generally run smoothly - crime is a problem but not overblown and out of control like in some US cities - I don't think any of the cities up here have murders totalling over 60 this year - however, even 1 murder is too much. But our taxes often, but not always go to good use - crime solutions and joint efforts between government /local govt, and cops and society all kick in together to try keep youngsters on the right path.... maybe that kind of social responsibility rings of communism to you [only] but Americans visiting here are impressed enough.




This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 09/21/07 6:50pm

[Genocide Junkie]

I know this thread is pretty much dead but I caught a rerun of Oprah today that featured this Michael Moore fellow. He sickens me best I can say. They had a loaded question as the theme of the show "Should a gas station attendant's children get the same medical care that a CEO's children receive?" Well of course everyone is going to answer yes. In an ideal world that would be fabulous. He almost made me gag when he started quoting Jesus. Said we shouldn't call it Socialized medicine but "Christian" medicine. Coming from him it sounds like a stab at faith. Not an endorsement of government controlled health care. They had an example of a man with leukemia that the insurance company would not authorize a $400k surgery for. Not that they denied the claim but that the charge was out of line with customary charges. Oprah couldn't understand that the insurance company had negotiated rates with a network of hospitals that would in fact provide the care for this gentleman for the amount specified. I don't pretend to think that our system is not broken but I shudder to think about how government run healthcare would look. I've seen our crappy schools and the DMV. Enough said. We already have a shortage of nurses and doctors in this country. What do you think is going to happen when you limit their abilities to earn higher incomes? You guessed it even fewer nurses and doctors. I have nightmares about what is going to happen if this ever goes through... cya later advanced health care hello DMV....

[Ghost Child]

If the USA got universal health care, where would the Canadians go to get good health care?

[Hellfighter]

If the USA got universal health care, where would the Canadians go to get good health care?

Read 2 posts up- you missed the point- Canadians that can afford privileged health care will come to the States for that probably life saving operation they're waiting in a line up for up here. The point is unlike down in the States all Canucks -poor too- are privileged for a half decent health care at miniscule cost [drugs -and if not wealthy paying ZERO - costs for our health care are of course through taxes - I'm guessing *since I calculate my own taxes to know* is that for each $15,000 net a person makes a year is about $10 they pay into the healthcare system -someone correct me if I'm mistaken but yes that's the total per year].

Yes we get periods of chaos at hosptals, but seeing as our cost of living is nearly the highest in the world amongst developed nations you can imagine free/ and very near-to- health care from excellent physicians and nurses we have up here is a blessing for us with little extra money to splurge. My question to you -hahaha- is where would the US hospital recruiters go if they couldn't find well qualified staff to 'steal' as we have up here?


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 10/13/07 10:59am