Barbarossa II - Smolensk Beta 1 Options

[Slyk]

Ok. Fine. I'm wrong. Very wrong. Delusional. Below are three scary images. The first, the 'Barbarossa' sky box with dimensions. The second, 'Smolensk'. The third an overlay of 'Barbarrosa' terrain into Smolensk. All images are roughly the same dimensions. The 'Barb' terrain I think should cover a bit more but it is more than evident that 'Smo' is far wider and contains much more ground...but yet I don't think it plays that big...maybe that is just me.







Ridicule at will.

[Silver]

Ridicule at will.

please dont think that...

actually I like the larger area for barb2, on barb people know the map so well and so many people are on that it just seems like it should be largeer so their is more angles of attack...

I like the four paths of barb, but barb 2 gives more flanking options... wasted space is also flanking space

This post has been edited by Silver: 01/27/06 2:40pm

[T/A6Pak]

WOW, What a great map.

Was on last night playing with Scrappy....had to take the 6 so I could find my way around. Lots of little sneaky spots to snipe and hide while waiting to get into the bases. There was only about 15 people on, I was so tired after running all those miles.

Is there a possibility of adding more jeeps near the starting spawn? Since only 3 can fit in one, alot of guys have to run towards the next area. (What a work out, almost spilled my beer)..LOL

A poppy field would be nice for the chicks...(just kidding).

Spent a large time looking for sachels...guess I just have to find the hiding spots.

Today I went on for awhile, just to get used to the buildings and area....yea some surveillance...I love the tunnels, great and quick access.

Thanks for making a great map!!!!:)

[Maj. H8Red]

A poppy field would be nice

yup awesome map

[Slyk]

Satchels are around. I'm not a fan of something in every building or every floor. Never have been. But there should be plenty once your figure out their locations...and most every building does have something.

Can't add more jeeps really without taking them from somewhere else. As I noted earlier, there are only so many to go around as they are used in other gametypes...if anything, I would have to pull Russian jeeps from the big village...there are a pair on the western half but then in CNQ guys will be screwed spawning in that area. Tough balance on a big map that feature three big gametypes in CNQ, CTF and BAS.

[Maj. H8Red]

I've found a couple satchel's here & there on accident, Not sure if I could find 'em again LOL panzerchrecks & bazooka's seem plentiful enough, though

*edit*

I did notice that alot of buildings were empty, on the German side (tank spawn area) Are locations of explosives the same for each gametype? In one of the tunnels, I saw a panzerchreck without the box. Left side of the map near a base..(1?)..sorry couldn't be of more help explaining where it was. Will try to get SS tonight after work.

This post has been edited by Maj. H8Red: 01/27/06 4:05pm

[ScrapyardBob]

"It's big... mind numbingly draw droppingly big. So big that your team will rattle around like bits of gravel in a grunt's boot."

I'm simply amazed at how large you've managed to make a map without killing FPS. Some of the views are breathtaking.

Communication is going to be a must on a map like this. There's just no way for anyone to keep track of what is happening on the other flank (or heck, even for the middle of the map to protect both flanks). I'm going to need a bindkey to remind teammates to use v21 / v55 / v56 when they spot infantry / jeeps / armor.

I love the tunnels, definitely something that I wish Barbarossa had. Not many tunnels on the german side, but I'm guessing that's because they're the attackers (per historical accounts).

Main reason for thinking about the one step back to the trainyard (and moving a few russian bases back) is to make use of that wonderful trainyard area in BAS. Unless you're planning on doing like Barbarossa and section that area off during BAS play. Still not sure if it would work, my mental spatial map of Smolensk might be "off" and I didn't log back in to look harder at my proposal.

Saving more comments for whenever I see "beta2".

[Hellfighter]

I like the big rear map areas and various maze of approach paths covered here and there, which all make for some exciting use of flying jeep navigation [and chases maybe] in flying around corners and disappearing. I see how your combined arms approach to this map is required, plenty of ambush spots for snipers and rocketeers, particularly if they are very good at long range and cunning enough to shoot attackers from behind their advance; such fire will swiftly halt a general advance as they try to scan from which multitude of covered spots they can be taking fire.
Tunnels are a great addition, reminding me of the fun I had on the AHz server with Town Assault map and on another map that was popular [some D-day campaicn? one-yanx vs,germs] also with a complex tunnel system.


This post has been edited by Hellfighter: 01/27/06 6:45pm

[grego34]

good map Smolensk, nice rolling hills and good tanking. I wish they would have used T-34's but i see he is keeping it realistic. How about a Kursk map soon with tigers-panthers -T-34'(85mm) good map After Hourz-Slyk

[ScrapyardBob]

CNQ is great on this map. I've never played CNQ before, but this was a blast. Things get really really nasty in the main town when the capture position passes through there.

CTF - the mortar in the german spawn (back by the stack of wood) is rather useless? Not enough range to hit the area around the flag or to provide any sort of coverage of the flag area. At best, it can dissuade someone from sneaking in the back.

The stone wall at the stone bridge could use just a tiny bit of lowering. It's usually possible to jump over it, but sometimes you have to catch it *just* right. Maybe nudge it down in a few more spots to make more obvious crossing points.

Railyard, found a few slatted fences that you can drive jeeps through (SE part of the railyard before you head down the S tracks). Around (3592 -13827 -131).

Now for the "out there" thoughts. Take these with a large grain of salt.

I'm thinking G3 should be shoved a bit to the NW, about 50-100 meters. That would keep the pillbox from hitting it and turn the existing G3 hill into a focal point for fighting (either a defensive position for germans or an offense position for russians). Being down closer to the river would make it more exposed which might be a good tradeoff for it being closer to the german side. It would also provide a touch of relief for R3 (if R3 stays there) as the germans would not spawn quite so close to R3.

The current G3 hill could also then start sporting some defensive positions looking both east and west. The pak gun by the existing G3 could move to (-20002 -5987 775), coverage from SSE to NE. That would counter the strong position of the pillbox gun. (I really like the pillbox gun and think it should have an extremely wide firing arc, as wide as possible.)

The pak position by G1. Remove the pak, make the position a little deeper and it's an almost perfect defensive position for a german tank to use. (A nice "tank scrape".) That frees up a model, but allows the germans to decide whether or not to put a tank in that position.

The mortar near the pillbox is okay, but I think it would do better up at (-16837, -17759, 653). That would allow it to face NW over the village, providing a reason to hold down that hilltop trench.

The 45mm at (-9909 -19154 492) doesn't have enough coverage. It currently faces almost due W but would be more useful if it faced NW. Coverage from WSW to almost due N would be great.

The passages around R3 (-11544 -6030 188) need to be a lot wider, 3-4 tanks wide (maybe more). I think this would be an ideal area for another "marshy" spot. Pools of water would provide some interest to this part of the north flank. Framerate in there seems to be very high due to the limited sightlines. (The north flank feels a bit "blah" at the moment, with only the R3 base tucked into that one corner.)

A few trees across the ridgetop at (-15798 -4010 633) leading through a moderately thick forest all the way down the hill to the existing R3 bunker location. Treeline ending at around (-13561 -3890 443). If the area around R3 was made deeper in the east direction, R3 could be moved another 50m to the east away from that treeline.

I sort of see R3 as being in low lying area, surrounded by pockets of water. Even if it's just a few puddles here and there. Germans would attack down the hill to the W through the tree cover but have about 50-100m of semi-open ground before they'd get to R3. Russians could either hold them off at the hilltop at the W end of the forest (but with the difficulty of taking fire from the G3 pak gun) or hang back closer to R3 in a defensive fortification.

Starting at (-9213 -5724 190) can we put a passage in that leads around to the backside of R3? Something narrow to connect up with the widened area around R3. That would give the russians a second approach to their R3 to bring in reinforcements rather then being funneled through that narrow passage that currently exists. (But if that passage were a lot wider, it wouldn't be as much of a deathtrap.)

The last part of the fence at (-8613 -10436 316) should be removed. It makes it too difficult to get on/off the bridge with a vehicle. In addition, the W slope of the road should be more gradual to allow vehicles to escape into the field there. Or for them to come up off the field and across the bridge without having to thread a needle.

If I were to move R2 to the east and make the russians spawn closer to the trainyard, I would put R2 at (-2925 -10393 508). In some ways this is a strong defensive position, but germans can flank around to the south, or come through the tunnels, or attack directly across the bridge to the west.

A passage from (-957 -14310 274) to (-115 -16123 193) would be good. It would provide a focal point for those two houses on the south flank passage.

Maybe move R1 back to (-1332 -18676 175). Flatten the R1 hill and put in a mortar position facing north at around (-6160 -18200 431).

Infantry should be provided more cover in the area around -7272 -8334 261. I'm thinking in terms of german infantry attempting to slip into the defensive positions east of town by sneaking over the raised road, dropping down into the stream and then sneaking up into the north half of the defensive positions. Maybe a wooden plank "bridge" across the water at that point that the germans/russians can use to cross while being hidden by some foliage (trees in the riverbed area). Might have to remove a few more pieces of fence on both sides of that dead-end roadway to allow infantry to slip over that spot.

That spot could become especially effective for infantry movement if there's a swamp area around (-9340 -6832 188) instead of the plain flat ground that exists there now. Maybe even a tunnel under the roadway at that spot, allowing infantry to sneak under the road and into the bushes / cover on the N side of the road.

Stationary gun positions. The russians have basically 4 spots. I'd leave all of these for all gametypes.

- The south gun that overlooks the swamp
- the pillbox gun
- 45mm in the defensive fortifications on the east side of town.
- 45mm in the N end of the railyard

German positions Same, leave them in for all gametypes.

- the G3 hill
- near the G2 base (-22196, -15641, 333), would need a good bunker design to withstand fire from the pillbox gun
- a 3rd one would go well at (-15282, -16642, 408), coverage from SE to N overlooking the SW corner of the town
- move the spawn pak NE and give it a wide view over the field

Mortar positions (if I was going to reposition all of them, I'd only use 6 on the map and leave them available for all gametypes).

- (-16837, -17759, 653) overlooking the stone bridge area
- (-23633, -9066, 442) facing NE with coverage to N and SE, basically move the trenches a bit to the NE to provide defense along the N flank
- (-14113 -10204 208) facing ESE with coverage of NNE to S
- (-7625, -13277, 188) facing W towards town, either inside the structure or on the E side of the structure.
- On the R1 hill (N of where R1 is)
- (3592 -13827 -131) with a cleaner view (and a woodpile or two for cover) to the SW.

There might be a few more positions for mortars, especially once defensive positions get put in in more locations. I don't feel that they're terribly useful when placed in the bases (and I'd like them to be available across more gametypes).

Tank scrape spots or defensive positions (spots for the L-shaped positions similar to the one WNW of German 1, or shallow depressions, or a mound of dirt, or 3 logs stacked on top of each other)

- (-15172 -8231 513), a tank position facing SE, overlooking the town
- (-16064 -7368 539) looking NW
- (-17570 -9584 312) exists, great design, looks NW
- (-15719 -3376 730) looking SW
- one by R3, looking west (wherever R3 ends up)
- (-18831 -3683 622) looking S
- (-21752 -4295 609) looking S
- (-25348 -7573 426) looking E
- (-24686, -12359, 205) exists, but needs some brush removed to give the tank gunner some visibility
- (-23398 -18835 442) exists, but too shallow, needs about another half meter of depth
- (-20946 -17540 314) possibly spot for looking NE
- (-18636 -20341 616) looking NE (basically an ambush spot) or could be used as infantry defensive hardpoint
- (-15394 -19439 462) looking E over the swamp
- (-16217 -13028 354) looking W and E, a simple wall would allow both sides to use this as a tank scrape
- (5056 -14416 -131) looking SW (woodpile, a broken wall, or stacked bunker logs)
- (4279 -9688 -131) looking WNW
- (-1119 -17106 188) looking W

That should provide a reasonable amount of cover for both sides if anyone wants to play defense. I tended to pick spots that provided a decent field of view, that wouldn't be in the way of "flow-schmoe" and are spots where it would make sense to defend / attack from.

(Apologies for the length... I think I got carried away.)

[Slyk]

There are a couple T-34s around, depending on gametype. BAS gets one and CNQ gets two. With more, they would overpower the Germans with their better armor and speed...and the gun is a bit longer ranged.

IF there is another UO map, it will be either November-ish 1941 or October 1942........both are started





BOB.... just saw you posted before me.... nice points. I can use some of the ideas. As usual, cover along streams is awaiting proper models... I am trying some other stock ones now to see if they will or will not glow..a major issue with some of the grass models. I've adjusted some AT gun traverse numbers to limit swing onto bases. Moved some others around and am moving or deleting mortars. I see a beta2 as a growing necessity... sad but there may be some big enough changes that they need hard public play.

The area around R3 is a tough one to mod. I'm a bit undecided what to do there. It is possible for the Russians to win a BAS round with that as their last base. Tough, but possible. The team needs to focus on defense of #2. Time will tell. I have some ideas for that R3 area though without major modifications. Added cover, trenchworks, move the hedge rows back a bit etc. Right now I have MAJOR resource issues so adding any more mesh or even brushwork often crashes the compile. I'm trying other mapper tricks to lessen the load and free up resources.

And CNQ kicks butt. You all should try it more. I am starting to think this map is the best overall CNQ map I have done.



This post has been edited by Slyk: 01/28/06 3:04pm

[ScrapyardBob]

I do think the HTs are overpowered on CTF. At least, given where the russian flag is located. (Maybe the russian flag needs to move to a more easily defended spot, like the N end of the railyard.)

I'm not 100% sure where all the capture points are for CNQ:

- german spawn?
- stone bridge
- pillbox
- W end of village
- town church
- somewhere in the bloody trees on the hill
- russian spawn?

So the addition of a spot at the wooden bridge could be interesting (although difficult to capture). But also a logical spot, especially if the trench / moat was deeper / steeper / longer so that you'd have to go around a long ways to bring vehicles across.

I think the "somewhere in the blood trees on the hill" could be changed if there was some sort of ammo dump hidden among the trees on that hill. Then it would seem more like a worthwhile objective before the final push down into the railyard? Maybe a focal point at -690 -11467 368 near the 2 big white rocks.

CTF - The german flag position. The germans have a nasty habit of parking the half-tracks on the flag. Which means you have to steal the half track first, before you can swipe the flag. Probably both flag positions need adjustment so it's not possible to park a vehicle on top of them.


This post has been edited by ScrapyardBob: 01/28/06 4:10pm

[Slyk]

- Parking on flags....now a vehicle clip over the area...won't happen again. That crap, my team or not, pisses me off.
- 'house in the bloody trees' is that small busted house in the forest. May end up with more 'stuff' around it for cover in and out. Again, resources...
- CNQ: West Bunker, stone bridge, concrete AT bunker, west end of village, church, main trench works, house in forest, depot. Follow the stars and/or press 'Tab' for current objectives.

[grego34]

ok--i found the t-34's but my next question is about respawning for the bas mod.. The german assault gun was destroyed and never came back??

[ScrapyardBob]

Looking at the pillbox area. I think the trench system could possibly be simplified / changed. As always, just one man's opinion, and some of these ideas are contrary to other ideas.

- The ditch leading from the tunnel to the back of the pillbox should be deeper.
- Eliminate any trenches to the W of the pillbox, make the pillbox more of the frontal point of that defensive area.
- Leave the slope in front of the pillbox so that you can sneak up underneath the opening.
- Move the stakes closer in from in front of the river to be more of a guard around the pillbox and trenches. That also helps with the vehicle issue.
- Have one trench end to guard / overlook the road (facing N-NW), possibly a spot to put a mortar facing NNW.
- The other trench end should open out to the SW towards the tank scrape

I think, in general, hand-dug trenches should alternate between shoulder height (deep) and being shallow enough to climb out of (knee deep). Makes it easier to climb out of them (and the exits are more apparent).