I read this the other day and was blown away. I'm not trying to offend anyone and I'm not racist at all, but I think grouping white people as a whole and saying, "pay reparations" isn't right. Seeing that there are a lot of white people whose families fought for slave rights in the Civil War and not to mention the huge immigration from Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's of which weren't even involved in slavery. How are these people responsible? I guess I'm also tired of hearing people complain about stuff like reparations, especially when other groups have had worse happen to them... let's revisit the American Indian and talk about how they are STILL getting screwed by the US govt, which isn't just white people. Well, this is a good essay that I think puts things into a new perspective. I'm eagerly awaiting Mr. Gates response.

This is not for those with thin skin. No punches pulled!

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is the chairman of Afro-American studies at
Harvard and is demanding that whites pay reparations to blacks for slavery. Fred
Reed is a reporter that presents an interesting essay on this subject.

So How Many Slaves Do You Own???
For those of you unfamiliar with Fred Reed, he's a police reporter for
one of the large Washington newspapers....... Anyway, Fred publishes,
(published) a weekly online column in which he got to say the things his editors
would never, ever have let him write in the paper. His stuff is iconoclastic
and various articles have probably offended everyone regardless of political
orientation.

So, with the warning that "This is definitely not politically correct", here comes Fred.

The following is an essay regarding the failings of a system and a
culture. Please note that he elegantly describes the mood of many
Americans and he does so without prejudice.

Slavery Reparations...by Fred Reed

On the Web I find that Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Afro-
American Studies at Harvard, is demanding that whites pay reparations to
blacks. It's because of slavery, see. He is joined in this endeavor by a
gaggle of other professional blacks. I guess he'll send me a bill, huh?
I feel like saying, "Let me get this straight, Hank. I'm slow. Be
patient.

You want free money because of slavery, right? I don't blame you." I'd
like free money too. Tell you what. I believe in justice. I'll give you a
million dollars for every slave I own, and another million for every year
you were a slave. Fair enough? But tell me, how many slaves do you
suppose I have? In round numbers, I mean...Say to the nearest dozen. And
how long were you a slave?

Oh. In other words, I owe you reparations for something that I didn't do
and didn't happen to you. That makes sense. Like lug nuts on a birthday
cake.

Personally, I think you owe me reparations for things you didn't do and
never happened to me. I've never been coated in Dutch chocolate and
thrown from the EiffelTower. I'll bet you've never done it to anyone. I
want reparations. Kinda silly, isn't it?

But if we're going to talk about reparations, that's a street that runs
in two directions. You want money from me for what some other whites did to
some other blacks in another century. How about you guys paying whites
reparations for current expenses caused by blacks? Not long ago blacks
burned down half of Los Angeles, a city in my country. Cities are expensive, Hank. Build one sometime and you'll see what I mean. Whites had to pay taxes to repair Los Angeles for you. You can send me a check.

Now, yes, I know you burned LA because you didn't like the verdict in the
trial of those police officers. Well, I didn't like the verdict in the Simpson trial. But I didn't burn my house and loot Korean grocers. Over the years blacks have burned a lot of American cities: Newark, Detroit, Watts, on and on.

Now add in the fantastic cost over the years of welfare in all its forms,
of large police forces and jails and security systems in department stores.

I can't live in the capital city of my own country because of crime
committed by blacks. Toss in the cultural cost of lowering standards in
everything for the benefit of blacks. See what I mean?

Now, I'd view things differently if you said, "Fred, blacks can't get
anywhere in a modern country without education. We know that. We need
better schools, smarter teachers, harder courses, books with smaller
pictures and bigger words. Can you help us?" I'd say, "Hallelujah!
Hoo-ahh! Not just yes, but hell yes. Let's sell an aircraft carrier and
get these folks some real schools and get them into the economic
mainstream." I'd say it partly because it would be the right thing to do,
and partly, because I'd like to add you guys to the tax base.

The current custodial state is expensive. I'd just love for blacks to
study and learn to compete and stop burning places. But is it going to
happen? You may not believe it, but I, and most whites, don't like seeing
blacks as miserable and screwed up as they are. I spend a fair amount of
time in the projects. Those places are ugly. It's no fun watching
perfectly
good kids turn into semiliterate dope dealers who barely speak English.
It just plain ain't right. But, Hank, what am I supposed to do about it?
I can't do your children's homework.. At some point, people have
to do things for themselves, or they don't get done.

Maybe it's time.

I'll tell you what I see out in the world, Hank.. I think blacks are too
accustomed to getting anything they want by just demanding it. True, it
has worked for over half a century. Get a few hundred people in the
street, implicitly threaten to loot and burn, holler about slavery, and
the Great White Cash Spigot turns on. Thing is, whites don't much buy it
any longer. Most recognize that what once was a civil-rights movement
has become a shakedown game. Few people still feel responsible for the
failings and inadequacies of blacks. Political correctness keeps the lid
on
-- but everyone knows the score, which scares me, Hank.

On one hand, blacks hate whites and incline toward looting and burning.
(The whites you hate are the ones who marched in the civil-rights
movement.

Ever think about that?)

On the other hand, whites quietly grow wearier and wearier of it. Not
good.

On the third hand (allow me three hands, for rhetorical convenience),
blacks keep demanding things. As I write, you demand reparations for
slavery. Blacks in Oklahoma (I think it was) want money for some ancient
race riot. Other blacks reject the Declaration of Independence, blacks in
New York hint broadly at burning and looting over a trial, yet more demand
the elimination of the Confederate flag, and the federal equal opportunity
apparatus, which means blacks, wants to sue Silicon Valley for not hiring
nonexistent black engineers.

That's a lot of demanding for one month, Hank. What happens if whites ever
say, "No"?

Now, how about you? You've got a cushy job up there at Harvard, and you
can hoot and holler about what swine and bandits whites are. I guess it's
lots of fun, and you get a salary for it. But don't you think you might
do
blacks more good if you told them to complain less and study more?

For example, if you want blacks to work in Silicon Gulch, the best
approach might be to find some really smart black guys, and get them to
study digital design, not Black Studies. That's how everybody else does
it. It works. Then blacks wouldn't feel left out, and racial tension would
decline.

Sound like a plan? Just out of curiosity, how many hours a week do
professors of Afro-American Studies spend in the projects, encouraging
poor black kids to study real life sho-nuf subjects?

This act is just retarded! My family came over from Germany & Sicily in the late 1800's & early 1900's & NEVER OWNED A SLAVE! Why should I give a black person money for that? How much money do the Jews stand to make off the Germans for the holocaust? Oh that's right the Jews aren't asking for money for something that happened to them that was much worse than slavery! Not to mention, Not as many years ago as slavery. This is just another case of people wanting something for nothing. Want money? Get a job!

I am so goddamned tired of hearing that blacks want reparations because of slavery. Their reparations were paid when the U.S. bought a country called Lyberia & offered a boatride over there to any & all that wanted it, that's not good enough? What about the Jews seeking reparations? How about the American Indians or just about every ethnic group to ever exist! I think it's just plain bullshit to expect money for something that happened so long ago.....

West Germany has paid out more than $35 billion in reparations to the Zionist state and to millions of individual "victims of National Socialism."

World War II reparation, according to the Potsdam conference

Germany was supposed to pay 20 billion dollars and committed in machines and movable goods, mainly to Soviet Union. Most of reparations stopped in 1953. West-Germany was almost exempted from reparations and was also part of the Marshall Plan. In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated by the property of Germans, that were expelled after World War II.

according to the Treaty of Peace with Japan and the bilateral agreements

Japan agreed to pay about 1 trillion and 30 billion yen. For countries renounced any reparations from Japan, she agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements.

according to the Paris Peace Treaties, 1947

Italy agreed to pay reparations of about US$360 million to Yugoslavia, Greece, the Soviet Union, Ethiopia, and Albania.

Finland agreed to pay (and paid) reparations of about US$300 million to the Soviet Union.

Hungary agreed to pay reparations of about US$300 million to the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia.

Romania agreed to pay reparations of about US$300 million to the Soviet Union

Bulgaria agreed to pay reparations of about US$70 million to Greece and Yugoslavia

The government of the United States officially apologized for the Japanese American internment during World War II in the 1980s and paid reparations.



Learn your facts before you post something about the second world war. As germany did pay reparations.

this is a heavy and tired topic. every year the idea of "reparations" is brought up and it just gets sillier. My family was in europe as well during that time, growing hops and crushing grapes. That still does not separate me from american history. I cannot compare world wars (or at least that is what americans call them) to the plight of the black americans. It is much deeper than one mans opinion, and this one man is leaving it way alone. especially on a gaming thread.

My bad Feezy, Didnt know there was compensation for that. I guess I'm not old enough to remember. But do you think its fair for white Americans to pay black Americans compensation for slavery when neither of the two races are actually slave's or own any slave's. Wouldn't that be like the Jews today wanting compensation for being slaves to the Egyptians in 1400 BC. Or did the Egyptians compensate them for that too? Bottom line is, Slavery was abolished almost 150 years ago. If there is anyone still alive that was actually a slave, then by all means compensate them. But the blacks that want the money were never slaves. And they want the money from white people that have never owned a slave. Being made to pay reparations for something I never did seems a bit ridiculous to me.

I'll try to be fairly objective in this field. Coming from a carib background myself I do get very surprised by activities of a few prominent afro-american 'leaders' and how they can't begin to fathom how dopey some of their ideas sound to the average person regardless of their background. In fact talk about inadvertently boosting recruitment for aaryan extremist groups!

With the bits n pieces I know of Afro-american history here are my objective views apart from some mentioned already. Basically I think the time for reparations should be taken care of very shortly after a collosal injustice... like Canadians of Japanese and axis-country backgrounds sent to internment camps here in WW2.
Someone mentioned the jews; one can argue they got a 'homeland' as a result of the Holocaust. I draw a parallel with that to the reconstruction era after the American Civil War which ended up being a fiasco by all parties involved - black and white. In my opinion this was the time where 'reparations/restitutions' could have and should have been exercised. This post-war period makes interesting reading, if you want to look into that topic deeper.

Aside from that viewpoint, we can all assume somewhere in our own family histories we had ancestors who were enslaved- yet no claim of restition brought up against them;
The Slaveowners being; Romans, 'barbarian tribes' of Europe, Slavs -eastern europe [where the word 'slave' originated from], Mongols, civilised Ancient Greeks, feuding east/west African tribes [even today Sudan is engaged in slavery], north Africa, Arab slavetrade with African tribes, and not to mention white American civilians captured by Arab Barbary coast pirates 2 centuries ago being slave-traded and tortured by the hundreds among Arab tribe leaders [remember 'from the halls of Montezumah [?] to the shores of Tripoli.... geezus there were even black slave owners prior to the Civil War in New Orleans and to top it off these guys formed black confederate militia units -> and putting the cherry on top of that, near the war's end, the confederate government was seriously considering drafting 10s of thousands of blacks into their army. Then there are the blacks of the caribbean largely descendants of former slaves not seeking reparations either.

Nothing better than a dose of reality checks and information is better to stop these folks who are looking for treatment beyond the call of fairness. I'd advise more a reaction of scoffing at the claims, than getting overly irate and going down to the level they want you to play at. Smart reasoning and arguments will see that such grandstanding for 'timed-out' charity will not get too far.

Either way Feezy, in my opinion all the blacks in the USA should be happy to even be here in the first place. Would they rather be back in the bush?

sorry for the repeat post,

Dave Chappelle did a hilarious bit on his show about reparations. I about pissed my knickers. I also would pay the lovely nubian princess in my avatar anything she wanted...

"I'm rich beeeotch!!!""""

lol

Can you really say there's a level of what's worse than each other?,,,,, not to mention 'much worse'.

Hellfighter's post nailed it on the head. Somewhere along the way, every civilization has been enslaved or wronged at one point. This ofcourse doesn't mean that American slavery was okay. Reparations were met after the Civil War, btw. Each slave was given money, bonds, and a piece of land. My mother and step-father live in east VA and most of the community is black rednecks. They are all living on the land that their ancestors were given after the war.

I wouldn't be against reparations being paid to people that can actually trace their ancestors being slaves by families that have been traced back to being slave owners... but then again, at the time it wasn't a crime. It's a grey area. I definately think it's wrong to accuse all white people for slavery. No one ever mentions that the slaves were sold by their own people in Africa either. People also don't mention that after the war, a lot of slaves stayed on the farm they had been working because it was a job.

I still think if anyone has a "bitch" about reparations, it should be the American Indians. Every year they get more and more of their reservations taken away, or atleast parts of them. They found oil on a reservation in New Mexico a few years ago. US Gov stepped in and took the land from them. B.S. I really wish they'd make a movie about the attrocities to the Indians, push it back in the spotlight. They have suffered over and over again while they never did anything wrong. If anything, they attempted to co-exist with Europeans that took over their country.

BTW, that Chappelle episode was AWESOME! Tron was the richest guy in the world. KFC stock shot through the roof! LOL!

That arrogant and lofty statement surprises me coming from a 'reasonable' person. That remark takes on a tone of they should feel 'they' owe.Firstly, not all blacks you see in the States were here 400 years ago, but came to make their dream like most other immigrants. Second, the blacks that were brought here and their ancestors were not all cotton pickers- and even though that industry contributed largely to the good times America nowadays can afford, remember too that their were many skilled tradepersons who were slaves and as well as many free ones, you know, the guys who invented the traffic light and another who made improvements on Edison's light bulb. so while the attitude of one owes the other may be prominent on some minds, realistically the effort was shared . that statement could be easily turned around > americans should be more than glad the blacks were here help them become as powerful as they are today.

Anyone of you out there harbouring the same living in the 'bush' sentiment, need to take a serious read at what many parts of Africa were prior to the 15th century... take for instance the kingdom that used to rule in current day Zimbabwe..... these guys had trade routes extending through East India and to even China.... the ancient west African kingdoms flourished with gold trade routes covering vast distances. Contrary to many thinking that Africans only lived in bush huts, they had walled cities too. You might even want to research who ruled lower Egypt fot several centuries around 600B.C. while northern eurpoeans lived in huts. I'm not trying to come off as being arrogant but every civilisation has its time and place, and the African nations of old did have their time of prominence. too many times the old 'victorian' attitude prevails that the Africans were mere heathens, when in fact christianity and judaism was practised in ancient black Africa in their early stages. Crusaders came upon black christian outposts in north africa on their way to Jerusalem. How about the jewish black Falasha of east Africa and the belief the 'Lost Ark' is in that area.

Also, wouldn't anyone who wants a break rather be in the U.S... aren't their hundreds of europeans illegally working in Florida too. You need to look at the status of many current day black African nations too. Several are not just bushes as you might be inmpying if one goes 'back' there. They have built up metropolitan cities, Nigeria has its own satellite in orbit. The management of some of these nations is not stellar but you do them an injustice to refer to them as bush-countries when they have so much to battle against [including corrupt leaders and little caesers - and all that not asking for reparations either.

I'm not saying either are good. I was thinking in the mind set of; If I had to choose between being a slave on a plantation somewhere or being locked up in a concentration camp held by nazi's. I'd probably want to be on the plantation. Thats all. And besides I was wrong as Feezy pointed out, they got compensated.

You call them Europeans? I call them Hispanics.

I just have to say "wow"

I wasn't sure if anyone would even post on this thread. I'm very impressed with the responses so far.

Yeah one helluva turnout on this one

Pez, I did not want to get into to the discussion deeply, thats why I made a short but to the point statement. Yes, all blacks should be very lucky to be part of our great nation. Im Italian and Irish. Both my sides of the family came to this country for a better living. I am grateful and so should they be grateful. If they are not, why not go back? If anything, the U.S. Government sould perhaps pay for a one way ticket to their homeland if they wish. It would be cheaper for society to pay for those tickets then to support them here.

Yes, the United States has a black eye for allowing slavery to happen. But we as a country fixed that and made every man regardless of color or creed equal. Anyone looking for money because of something that happened to their great grandparents or beyond is just looking for handouts. Go back where your grandparents came from if you dont like it here.

While we are on the topic. Does anyone here find it offensive that there is a United Negro College fund? If there were a United Caucasian College fund I am sure every black activist would be on it like white on rice. There are so many groups for Blacks it is not even funny. They are the ones segregating themselves from everyone else and no-one points it out as racist??

Well, as for myself, I was never a color-oriented person. So growing up, my best friend was black and others were from all over the world... asian, indian, middle eastern, etc. Now I never saw a huge issue with race till I met people in my adult life. I can see why blacks can be paranoid about certain issues and how they don't always have the best chances at life. At the same time, if they hear prodominent black leaders preaching that their lives aren't good because they aren't educated, it's almost like it would be easier to give up and just deal with their lives that way. Most of the people in the world aren't born with a silver spoon in their mouths. I few up outside of Washington DC which is a upper white collar area, but my family was low to middle income. I've had my fair amount of crap jobs and I had to work to get where I am.... still working to get more.

I can see why there is a Negro college fund, mostly because there are more black inner city children that are getting good grades that can't afford to go to college. I do think this is to help people out. I know there are alot of white kids that get good grades and can't afford to go to school too, that's where it gets shady.

What really pisses me off is the Emmy Awards. I think that's it.. the award for music. A few years ago, they made a seperate show for the Latino Emmys. Okay, fine. But then they still have awards for Latino music in the regular Emmys. WTF? It's gotten to the point where all those award shows don't mean squat to me anymore because instead of just having a few award shows a year, there's one on every weekend. It's watered down the value of the award in general. Ack, I'm getting off topic here, sorry.

Anyway, no one can un-do history. You can not right a wrong, in historical view. If we could right the wrongs, it would've been done a hundred plus years ago. I do think majority of white people have moved on and lived with equality. I consider humans equal all around. I think the people that bring up the race issues all the time are blacks. Jesse Jackson, Farrakan, etc. They are different, but they preach similar issues about unfair treatment of blacks in the past and that they need to stand up and fight. How about sit down and read a book to further your knowlege. I'm sure Mtv doesn't help either, and kids go and emulate what they think is cool. Mtv sucks.

pez my friend, you may think all the Europeans you see in Florida are tourists, but I know the difference between Hispanics and Europeans. There are European students working in Florida illegally by the boatload.

I don't make it down to Florida very much. Last time I was there, it was Latino-ville. Basically, I had to speak Spanish to get anywhere or anything.

I'm not sure why you think so many groups = its not funny- perhaps explain that one. I'm not big on those segregated groups you mentioned I agree [those institutions had their positive uses at one point - keep in mind many groups do the same thing, based on religion, nationality, or culture- so saying its a 'black' thing is distorted - perhaps because they get so much limelight may incline you to think that way], but you guys still have broken fences unique only in the States and I hope they get fixed sooner than later. Thinking one group is largely more to blame for the status-quo isn't fair in my opinion -regardless of who's dreaming that up, that vision won't get anyone far in terms of coming together.

For the record I'm against anyone segregating themselves as groups in order to put others as 'the bad guys'. Mostly I hate small kids getting their minds twisted by twisted adults regardless of race or wherever they may be on this tiny planet.

Generalizations are too easy; the simple minds get latched onto bad ideas that way. Thinking that you hear a leader lashing out or tons of a type of group around shouldn't be equated to 'Sooo, that's what they're all thinking" mentality. Doing that leads to people getting defensive and in effect clustering into that broader group and bringing about frictions as a result.

Yeah there are loud mouths all over, then there are amongst them some with a point. Look throughout historyto see who were accusing who of being ' rabble-rousing' troublemakers.... 18th century Freanch aristocrats vs. peasants, 19th century russian nobility vs. peasants, British Overlords vs. those rallying for American Independance.

I dunno, I got the impression you were hinting those slaves had an option to punch out on a time card at the end of the day, or had unions to voice complaints, and could stage walk-outs. Maybe a google on photos of some of those slaves with totally ripped up backs from gratuitous lashes - can you imagine expecting a lifetime of that! It may make you rethink if there is actually a 'rather be' point.

Maybe they had mouthed off? LOL

lol, pretty funny pez, I wonder who mouthed off to go into gas chambers - maybe the little kids whined too much , lol, hahahha... its a funny topic isn't it.

It's never a funny topic, but sometimes it's not bad to make light of situations... small jokes, etc. I never make fun of the holocaust because my grandfather died at a concentration camp.











He fell off the guard tower.



j/k obviously, my grandfather served under Patton, 3rdArmy/10thArmored.

I never make fun of anyone in a horrid situation either Pez, even if I'm not directly associated with it [ like yourself with your grandad's story]. I know what you mean about those small jokes though. A friend of mine told me when he went to Israel some years back and he heard the younger jews make such jokes [?] about that episode in their history. One time back in the 80s I was working for an 'egg-headed' caribean/black fellow in his printing company, I made a minor work booboo and he jokingly said "No wonder we don't get the vote in South Africa!" lol, that prick!

It's funny though, I had the pleasure of knowing for many years an elderly gentleman, Asher, who was Jewish and we got along great but he'd always jab at me with similar comments in this thread about over-zealous adventures of some afro-american leaders in the U.S. [in particular about the 'Roots' novel misrepresentation]. Knowing I had an interest in history and WW2, since I used to buy alot of books from his antique store in my spare cash days, he told me his war story in WW2. He was a truck driver in the Jewish Brigade attached to the Brit.army in Italy. There are a couple of very excellent books that cover the Brigade's clandestine activities hunting down nazis who thought they could slip away unpunished and also the Brigades crafty methods of supplying the Jews in Israel with arms. My friend Asher, also mentioned he survived two torpedoed ships crossing the Atlantic.

If you think that's horrible enough, you don't know the worst part.... on one of those ships, that particular night, he had night watch duty above deck.... only he and another survived the sinking- out of 1500 aboard!.

One day I wanted to put a cliq in his jabbing at me, so I brought in a book about the U.S 761st 'coloured' tank battalion with photos of their presence at the Buchenwald liberation - sort of like a 'we were in this together' thing. Another interesting note on concentration camps, in addition to all other 'undesirables' nazis sent there, sent there too were hundreds or more black/German nationals and no doubt some taken during the pre-war German nazi takeover of Alsace-Lorraine where many African vets of the French WW1 Army had been stationed to garrison at war's end. Some of these vets, settled down in the region to marry local gals- much to the Nazis indignation.

I remember another story from a Bulge campaign book where a whole bunch of yanks taken prisoner were about to be interogated - hundreds lined up in parade formation. As was typical, SS inerogattors showed up and called out for Jews to step out. The Jews started to step out then so did the rest of the GIs; SS bozos turned away empty handed.

i have to say pez that your origanal post is not that far off and is an intelligent rebuttle from a person who is not using HATE as his means of expressing himself. after 9-11 it seemed like the the differences between whites and blacks had cooled a bit and it seemed a bit like we were all working together as amaricans and it actually felt very nice but here we go again! even a man like BILL COSBY had a problem with exactly what this person said as to making the tests easier etc..just to get them out in the world.im a realtor in s florida and allthough most people think realtors drive the cadilac and drive the million dollar houses i also drive the very bad areas as well looking for investment properties such as section 8 housing.the buyers are usually hispanic and whites and the tennants are usually black (ive sold 30 this year and all were african amarican) and i have to say it bothers me when i walk into a sec 8 household and theres a $2000.00 flat screen tv sitting in their living room!

i see truth in what he writes because it does bother me seeing all the poverty and kids running drugs that i see for my own.but some people dont want to help themselves.its the people that work hard to get out of the ghettos and off the streets who have character in this world. i know that they have it ruff but we all make choices when we are young that reflects who we are going to be when we get older. theres not to many kids that went to school everyday and got good grades that didnt get caught up in crime or drugs that is not making a living in this world later in life.i am only speaking from personal experience and in no way do i have a racist bone in my body but theres alot worse of a letter this guy couldve written.

I would rather say fuck them all... I wont pay a black guy a penny for slavery! fuck that! Black people are not UNEDUCATED, or poor...

there is more money in the Worst neighborhoods then in most banks.

I am white and lived in an all "minority" (<--bs I was the minority!) and they have money from drugs... there is no jobs for them (and me) execpt Mc D's and BK... and how do you raise a family on that? if I had problems paying bills and feeding my kids il sell coke faster then anything else. some people I know collect elfare to offset bail!(picture that!) it costs around 1600 to live at minimum... welfare dont help, workiing at minimum wage dont pay bills..

no factories, no good jobs for high school drop outs... what ya gonna do? starve? let your kids go to school with raggy clothes? why when you see the guys down the street dealing and making it! you do what you have to... collect welfare, work off the side, steal, rob houses and sell crack! the white people in my area act like their shit dont stink, cuz they make 15 an hour and that they are so high and mighty... fuck them... at least they are trying, unlike the middle class white trash...

Like I explained before there's a time and place for a group to be seeking, reparations, and such self-appointed upper/middle-class afro-american 'leaders' show themselves to be numbskulls since they are oblivious to how dopey they sound to most sane people -of any culture- when seriously thinking it's fair to bring up such an outdated issue .

My issue is with the opinions seeming to think every afro-american is drooling to see the idea go ahead, and also with the lofty generalizations of 'they owe us' attitudes, which to me puts you on the same level as the reparation ranters and only serves to divide people in the same way. I don't know exactly how it goes down there, but I believe instead of yourselves sitting back and protesting in the background, you should write an email to your congress-person with a rational exprsssion that you're against any form of restitution.... if you can't even take the time to at least do that then that's your problem.

I grew up poor too, but luckily drugs and violence weren't around in my time as a kid. I think its all about opportunities relatively being unhindered -even though it may be a struggle- one gets early in life that makes the difference. With what Silver mentioned, regardless of how much someone poor wants to better themselves, if they are in a neighbourhood with circumstances and drug-dealers beating down their efforts, things are tougher to get out and follow your dreams than areas where this isn't prevalent. It's no mystery hard work pays off ... those in ghettos can see examples of those that made it bigtime in all sorts of careers bringing themselves out of their hard living, and therefore the idea of restitution is not at all valid. But don't think everyone in a ghetto is out for a free meal ticket, in spite of everything being put against them to succeed, in spite of neglectful political policies and SOB criminal parasites in the neighbourhoods, many are trying to get ahead and work very hard to at least lead a normal productive life - so do them a favour and stop negatively labelling them.

The problem we have is not a Black or White issue. All White people have Black friends, and Blacks have White friends. The problem is those in Ghettos and all poverty stricken areas. It just happens to be a large majority of Blacks in those areas. My Black friends and family(yes, my brother in law) are good people. But many (black and white) that are from those poverty stricken areas are trash. My parents were on their own at an early age and lived in areas that were not so good, but worked to get somewhere. They got their children out of the slums. I now, own a company. I benefited from their hard work. I was not handed my company or money to start it, but was handed a better school. No one should be asking for any reparations or anything else. Go out and work for it like everyone else had to. Thats why when someone asks for things like this it just pisses me off.

I agree that it's not always a black/white issue, I believe it's more of a culture or society issue. If you are growing up in the ghetto and don't have anything, ofcourse you're going to feel resentful towards those who have a lot or everything. This is a main tool used in the Middle East to train children to hate Americans. I've seen the footage of teachers showing US commercials for candy and soda, basically saying that kids in America eat/drink these products all day. It's partially true but it's more exagerated. These kids then build resentment towards others that have a better life, whether we do or not. Look at war time propaganda, same thing. We are taught to look at the other side, filtered, and then process resentment.

Looking back at it, all my friends are around me because we work together or grew up together, which puts us in the same background. I don't have any friends that live in the ghetto, not by choice, but by association. I do feel for anyone that is having a hard time but part of me thinks that if they try hard, they can remedy that situation.

Post-Katrina, everyone was talking about chocolate city and how the blacks were left to die. I thought that was a pile of crap. I understand that some people couldn't leave, I feel bad for them. But I also saw white people walking along the highway to safety.... they didnt' just wait for the govt. to take care of them. I think some people take actions into their own hands and others wait to be served. So you have a stadium full of (majority) black people and some start taking the law into their own hands. That was very unfortunate that people were raped and killed... reminded me of Lord of the Flies the way the whole situation was presented. What it all came down to was culture and class issue. There were a lot of people that got out of the city, blacks/whites/asian/hispanic/etc., that were more financially stable to have a car or other means to leave. I'm not saying that our govt. responded in time or that the people left behind were taken care of correctly... just saying that people shouldn't always rely on others for help. Sometimes you need to stand up and start taking charge of your own life. I thought this kind of analogized what many of you were saying in your posts as well.

Man/Dude [something similar lol], we agree on that, but its not the guys in the ghetto asking for reparations, all I'm saying is beat up/be pissed off ONLY at the reparation-ranters themselves that are saying they are speaking on behalf of a group of people who seek reparations when that's not the case at all... you'll find 'the group' largely don't give a flying f... about what these so called 'leaders' are out to weasle. The dialogue I'm hearing here looks like people are kicking the wrong end of the can. Don't just complain in the forum, like I said write to your congressperson and tell them that these ranters are on power trips and don't represent the 'true' desires of afro-americans in general. Contrary to what you imagine most of them [not just a few isolated cases !] are thinking about normal day-to-day existence things like yourself; no major clandestine conspiracy going on against 'the Man'.... It should be apparent those that are ranting on the pulpits will be afro-americans who are among the well-to-do, not the majority of folks in the ghettos. Misdirecting anger at a group as whole rather than the real individuals who should take the flak has a negative impact.

The biggest problem when it comes to any discussion about slavery is, very few people know the facts.
Most Americians only know about slavery from either a slanted, rewritten history or people in their middle ages thinking the book/movie Roots as a good overview of slavery.
Without knowing the fact about slavery, I don't understand how anyone can even begin to discuss reparations.
Here are a few points people should keep in mind.
Slaves were kidnapped and brought to America.
Although this is true is a small precentage of cases, the vast majority were slaves long before they ever saw a white person. Slave traders pulled into one of 3 major ports and bought slaves the same way they bought supplies for their voyage to America. Slaves had been bought an sold in Africa for a 1000 years before there was even an America. In fact, slavery still exist even today in some parts of Africa. It's not uncommon for waring factions to take "human bounty"

Only blacks were slaves.
Most people would be surprised to find out a quarter of the slaves in America were actually Indians, especially along the western states. Even more suprising to most people is there was a small precentage of slaves who were white, mostly Catholics from Ireland.
Or how about the fact, there were around 3000 free blacks in America who owned slaves.
So much for it being a white/black issue.

The biggest reason why reperations will never happen.
The logistics involved are overwhelming.
It would be near impossible in the magority of cases to prove who is a direct desendant of a slave.

How did you get that impression? Now your just putting words in my mouth. It isn't an argument on which is worse. It was to be an example of another group of people that were mistreated and how they weren't asking for money. BUT I WAS WRONG!!!!! So can you let it go? Your turning it into something that it's not.

I have nothing to let go, if you can't take a crtique on your own critiques, stay out of the kitchen if you don't like the heat... Obviously I was being sarcastic... or it should've been obvious. I only responded precisely to what you clearly said - nothing more, I never said you thought the choices were good.

Sorry I used the word's 'much worse'. I guess since I was never in either situation I wouldnt know which is worse. I can only speculate. And thats what I did. Oh and your sarcasm wasnt obvious. Now can we drop it? I dont want to argue with you. There's no point.

in response to this poster's apparently sad attempt to be sarcastic ;



Lol , I'll stick to my normal loopy humour then, which unfortunately may be worse than my other attempts at being funny

ill solve it all, i will run for prez and send everyone back to their origional country... me to kilt country, blacks to africa, white to the EU country of choice, any mutts we shoot... canadians well we can shoot them too... give america back to the native-american indians. also anyone that is malato gets to go to africa.

Got my vote!

Got to give it to Druid for the research. In fact, Africans were the one to capture and sell them not only to us but anyone. For over 1000 years the dominent tribes would inslave the lesser ones. I am not saying this is ok, but if Afro Americans really want reparations, they should seek them from Africa and only if their former tribes did not inslave anyone in the past.

I work with inner city kids all year in sports and I hear this stuff all the time. I am really kinda fed up with it.

damn what about us mexicans who land was screws form them then what about our rep u dont hear us cryin lololol damn get over it what about the jews what about the chinese what about the mexicans what about the irish at one point every race waqs screwed this sounds mean but the blacks have not had it the worst stopp acting stupid

Actually a good point dienamic.... I'm surprised at the level of persecution complex in SOME afro americans - Many of you keep claiming the masses of one group are banging at the doors for such a handout- I find that as annoying as the few power-trippers who are stirring up crap seriously demanding reparations....With time, eventually the see-saw of common sense prevails and these claims will be seen as futile as historical education makes the 'poor me' syndrome redundant.
I mentioned this fact about African slave traders on page 1 of this thread [give it a read]... and the fact that some Sudanese tribes are still doing it today. As Druid mentioned too indentured slavery was 'common' amongst whites a few centuries ago. One can argue to the afro-american reparation ranters that the descendants of the exploited 'poor classes' in England [18th/19th century Industrial revolution] would have a right to claim reparations too.
It's too bad many of you use an outraged reaction to a mass of people when in fact only a few-power trippers are barking up the tree. A good knowledge of history will help you scoff at those idiois bleeting the 'poor me' message who are oblivious to other folks suffering too throughout history and all over the world and rising up out of their ashes eventually.
You probably won't get away with my proposed suggestion below Dienamic since things are probably more 'catty' south of the border regarding presenting racial history... or rather who is presenting it. But up here I lend some assistance to a lecturer on black history throughout the ages and their participation in world events looked upon with with great reception because of the broad spectrum his presentations cover - no hidden agenda, showing how we were and are building history together
We are surprised by the incredible lack of knowledge the black kids [american/caribbean] have of ancient African Kingdoms, African integration into Christianity and Judaism at their beginnings, inventors, their integration into Roman armies, Napoleonic armies [in particuular, a General Dumas], American War of Independance armies, WW2 etc., They have the impression they had nothing before slavery/ then they were enslaved and colonised and that their real history began with the dawn of successful civil rights movement in the 1960's.... they are nearly 99.9% unaware their ancestors traded themselves as slaves to other traders who were Africans, Arabs, and Jews. It's slow process but my friend forges ahead with his exhibitions to tell these kids [and adults] to get their heads out of the sand and get real with their real past and thus lose the prevalent persecution complex.

My hope Dienamic is that you can somehow get these kids to know they didn't always have a gloomy history but one where they proved themselves by themselves in their days of kingdoms, and they should be made well aware of the efforts/sacrifices of white abolishinists to help create an equally based society rather than a house divided. Like Samoan says... it's time to get over it! I hope the USA breaks the cycle of racial divisions hammering at each other.

BRAVO ALL,

Well worth the read. Alot of interesting points some with facts, some without.

As far as I am concerned in the year 2000.. everyone started on even ground. All historic, bullshit lawsuits should be thrown in the shreddar. But unfortunately in today's world, everyone's out to make a free buck where ever they can. Hard work has it's payoffs and everyone has the choice whether they want to work hard when they are young to make a future for themselves...or if they think they can live off other people and make ends meet.

I know people who have billions of dollars and you would never know it to meet them. (Most self made, by working their asses off and suffering from not seeing there children grow up and dealing with several divorces. I've seen people with enough money to get by, live in a small house, but spend quality time together and have marriages that most rich people dream about.

I personally think it's about time people stop saying "What can you do for me" and focus on "What can I do for me"

Just my opinion:)

Excellent... and perhaps one better that many of 'these' kids are seriously lacking..... "What can we do for the world and fellow citizens?" I'd like to see them more aware and active in global issues and spending their money not on bling bling and helping the bank accounts of their idol rapsters get fatter, but in charities, and spend time in tree-hugging types of crusades -ok not gonna happen , but something similar.

i agree fully! if your hero is some idiot who claims to have shot up some places and smoke weed every day wearen gold teeth you will be that!

one thing ive recently found interesting and this may tell you where our country is going(please correct me if im off because i do not have the documentation infront of me)

from the nar (national assoc of realtors) census for the entire us (not just florida) onthe percentages of owning a home .

latino is like %60 , white %30 asian less %10 black less than %5 (they dont explain them as african am this is catagorized as carib,hatian ,african amarican etc..) it means latino will bust their ass to buy and stay -whites usually contemplate things and tend to wait and it shows that more than %90 of black are renters and alot of that comes from the what you gonna do for me attitude.please check my work ,im looking and cant find the papers.even for whites thats suprising i thought.for the latino thats how the irish made it here as well.

I finally made it back to this thread. I guess it was on my mind because I had lunch Shannon Watkins "the Non For Profit sports organization President I am a member of " and Tom Bodett....no not the motel 6 guy but a Kansas City Chief lineman lol.

We discussed the inner city today during lunch and started planning our spring camp and fundraisers. Even though I am against reparations for the most part, I do enjoy helping these kids. Without us most will end up in gangs, selling dope, prison or dying in the streets. To tell the truth Hellfighter, I do try and get them to not dwell on thier problems, but focus on thier future. I am not so sure they would accept me trying to get them to research thier past. It has taken me 4 years just to get the inner city people to trust me with the sports and moral training we provide for thier kids.

If I have helped but one child black, white, etc.....it was all worth it. As far as giving them a free ride or treating them with pity, I am a mean ol coach that is not afraid to shake the hell out of a couple of kids who decided to settle disputes with thier fists or worse. For now, that is all I can do.

Reporations.....I can still only say hmmmmmmm.

thats reportations enough my friend! they need direction from someone who has one! you are right ,think of the future and not the here and now! work hard now and be rewarded later!

Outstanding!; Years ago I did similar volunteer work, but not for that length of time!!! Well done.....