What's the win ratio on Barb now-in-days. I bet Russian out-wins German 2-1 at this point. With all pak shots know, and Russkies having far more, the map has become unbalanced IMO, but would like to know real stats. Are there any?

Surely those VSP stats have that recorded somewhere?

But I think you're right MoD that Russians probably win more frequently than Germans. The pak shots sure take a lot of the fun out of the map IMO (not saying that I dont use them sometimes); but I think Barb was more fun before ScrapyardBob uncovered and posted all the long range 'coordinates.'

It's because the majority of the pro's like Russian and are familar with the shots. I bet if we all went German we could change that around...LOL

T/A6Pak

I remember a game like that where i came in the second round. You guys crushed the russians the first round, but i went russian and halted your victory by maybe 10 minutes. A couple other talented players were there that helped, but in the end, 7 MOB members just crush any opposition.

I think it's a case of 1 + 1 = 2. Experienced players know Russian is better, they can do multiple relatively safe pak shots that rack up both personal points and team wins, and thus, you have pros stacked on the team that is easiest to win with *if* you know what you're doing. It's the way it's been for a while now, but it seems progressively harder and harder to get a win on German if there's any guy on Russian that knows how to do a few pak shots.



Funny thing is, when it first came out and no one knew the 18 different Russian long distance pak shots, I felt Germans had the advantage. No more!

Hi MoD. I agreed that the Russian team take advantage with 4 pak against german 3 pak. As you know the russian team don't need to use the pak to take out german base, the russian Tank can do it .I can use German Tank and Pak to take out all of the russian base from long distance

...and you are not the only one.

What? who else

The exact same issue comes up with Italy on the Stock server. That map seems to heavily favor the Germans who can drop all three bases with long range shots from the hill above G3. The regulars made it a point to play on the British side, or to split up as much as possible. It made for a much better game and now very few people are complaining about the map's inherent imbalance.

I like the PPsh more than the MP44. Thats why I use Russian. I can use the german heavies to hit any Russian base just as easily using the pak on the Russian side. The reason Russian team wins more is because most of the talented players go on that team. Its not cause the map has a fault. You can say that with a German push on Russian 3 from the Russian 1 side can not be stopped if your using all the German Heavies and Stug. German Tanks are much better than the Russian tanks and Russians have very little help with that kind of rush. Just takes talented players to get together and do it all at once.

The bottom line is that its where the talented players are, not the map in general.

I disagree. The imbalance is less about blowing the tops off bases, but covering the plants. Two Russian paks can hit G3, and those 2 paks CANNOT be hit by any German pak. The middle Russian Pak can also cover a plant on G2 or G1. Once again, no German pak can hit it.



On the other hand, Germans can only hit R2 and R3 with their one middle pak, and Russian can counter that with a shot from either their middle or rear Russian pak. Play Rommell or TBN, and they pak the German middle pak all game rendering it useless. Not picking on them, strategically it works, but the point is Germans have no counterbalance to the multipe pak capabilities of Russian. And it gets worse for German. Russian paks can blast into German main spawn. They can be used to kill the gunner on the G3 pak, and that's from the very safe home base pak. I use that one all the time.



One the other balance issues, Germans have the better, more versitile tanks. However, the Russian heavy is the best "defender" tank in the KV1, and I think the T76 is the best tank overall, even with the static gun. And the Germans have one big exploit. That is, their main tank spawn that can be overtaken and held so easily for a long time. Russians have no such vunerability since their tanks are spread out better and spawn area is protected by trees. Well, I don't have to tell you...everyone knows a strategy against Germans is taking over their spawn.



If German paks could return fire on the Russian paks, I'd say it was balanced. But with Russian paks being able to brutalize German paks and all their bases, and all us long time players knowing what does what now...well...



I wrote this because my soundcard is messed and since I'm not on vent, I've been autoassigning a lot lately. Well, that means being on German a lot, and it's frustrating. I consider it a victory just to tie.



Anyway, when I get back on Vent, I'll probably be teamming up more with Vent guys, and that means Russian usually, but I'll feel a little for those poor German bastards. They have little hope against a good team.



MoD

Guys win Barbarossa first started up the Germans one like 3-1 b/c no1 knew any pak gun shots. And if some1 then every1 complained about blind firing. I Pak shots did start to ruin a bit but earlier today the russians got completely destroyed b/c they had people covering the pak guns. If the russians cant use the paks they are screwed roayaly

Again i agreed. It's wrong to say that the german pak is "useless". You can hit R-3, Russian pak behind 3 Russian spawn and Russian 2. Last night the Germ team play well, and almost run over Russian base.

This has been more likely the result on Barb nowadays, of course exceptions happens but this particular game was one to remember Notice anything special on ss?? :

HatchetMan couldn't have played many seconds......

MOD,

I think your wrong. You can use any tank at any part of the map just about to cover or hit any base. I even was firing on G3 with a popcorn tank yesterday. I was in with Rommel tesing the map and discovered we could do it. The bottom line is does your teammates have the time to study where and how the tanks and paks fire goes.

I am positive I can use the P3 or P4 from German spawn to open any base and fire on any base of the Russians. The thing is to study it and figure it out.

The key to the Germans I believe is still the rush to their 1 and heavy hitting their 3 from there. The german tanks are just about unstoppable for the Russians with that tactic. Once you take out the Russian heavy near the minefield, its a field day for the Germans.

In my opinion, its all tactics and who is on what team. The extra paks that the Russians can use only evens out the Tank advantage that the Germans have.

Blinky, I don't know what ss means but did notice no one on the russian team has and deaths.

OMG Germans have no points/kills and Russians have no deaths. Amazing for that many in the map. Unless most of them came in late.

ss = screenshot

no, only hatchet came in somewhat late if i can rememeber correctly. it was quite a first round.

I dont see your name there lip, were u playing on a different name?

i was second to my buddy m1 pollux. i think its the L 1 p >> ton ! name. i'm not sure if BsS is in there or if that was when the tags were banned.

I agree that the ruskies seem to have advantage, first the paks r ripping our bunkers apart, and second more experienced players usualy choose russian side, I constantly have to explode in my seat becuase some noobie shootis a russian B2 with mg34, apparently not knowing the fact that bunkers are bullet resistant...

If one of the russian paks was moved it would make it better, and the russians have 4 paks capable of long range fire, and germans only 2, because the pak by G2 dosen't really count because it is positioned to defend G2 from the left flank, not facing enemy bunkers...
...........then again, if you look into history, the germans were way outnumbered in men, tanks, airplanes artillery, etc. but they won becauyse their soldiers were better and their equipment was too... so I guess it can be said that th map is "Historically" accurate and we simply need the better players to choose the german side to challange themselves, with had fought victories. But the russian pak is a 45mm one, and german pak40 is a 75mm gun, so the shots should have significantly diffrent damage... unless the sign that say >press "f" to use pak 45mm< is incorrect...
but in the end if 5 experienced players were on german side against 15 noobies on russian side, the crack troops would ultimitly win... people just have to try to play on both teams more... not just russian all the tiem, i paly russian and german maybe not equally but like 75% G and 25% R...

and like I said before, on the G team there lost of people that play Barr for first time... on sunday I saw some dude run past G3 toug it was planted and people were screaming to get it defused, he ran past it liek a madman... the experioanced palyers should before choosing a team look at the playrs list, and see, which team looks like there are lost of new noobie players, and join that team to give a even chanse... sure its annoying when you have people running around not knowing what are they sopposed to do... another example, soe dude got in my jeep and said >To russian 3, we need to blow it up< and I was like, well duh! It's the only remaining enemy bunker, which other we gonna blow up?! well better shut up now, cause like meowman called it, I ned to save my shenanigance for the weekend...

Put me on a team -rusky or jerries-with 3 guys in 3 jeeps who know how to rush the toughest base first and we know 99.9% we'll win in 8 minutes against a team on non-vets double our size on the other side.... well ok- we would need 2 defenders at our own toughest base-just in case. I agree with Nothing- it depends who's on the team- you can have nooblets that wreck the whole scheme by blowing the easiest base 1st. In my opinion.

... and vets of 8 minute wins know this is done without long range arty opening up enemy bases too, or covering planted ones.

But there is a problem there , you're taking a break from CoD so no playing for you . So since you're not on a team, your whole plan falls apart. This has been the half-baked logic of [MOB}[Regs]Pancakes

Heh, the trick is to not get caught by the initial enemy aurmored and infantry attack, so the tactic i use, is to hide the jeep in the barn, by russian mid-pak, wait for jeeps and some tanks to pass by and the step on it to R3... and from there all bunkers r yours for the picking... this works 50% of the time, however often fails because the heavy kv1 r slow, and soemtimes I get impatient and go even tought I know I oughta wait a bit longer...

Thanks, I'll remember that



Another thing you can do is secure the center pak and wait for a minute or two. This will normally give you 1-2 kills if you get the jump and then you can go get your jeep and attack the bunkers.

With all due respect Nothing, you are perhaps the ultimate "Russian only" player, so your opinions on this seem more based on theory than practice. I play a lot for both sides, and if you put two experienced players on Russian and two on German, then Russians have the advantage, plain and simple. Germans can take the hill at R1, but they are open to be attacked too, and the beauty for Russian is that while you can back them into a corner, at least their best base is in the same corner with a pak behind it. And while it's true Germans have some pak shots, they can all be neutrilized by Russian paks shots in an instant which is what happenes when they have any expeirienced player, unlike Russian paks which are safe from pak shots...at least, the ones used to cover base plants, their two middle paks.



But you know, the original question was IS THERE ANY STATS?


Finally, look at this screen shot from last night. A few MOBS on German, and we totally dominated Russian...BUT we could not plant 3 successfully over 2 games. Switch those teams around, and Russian would have beat German in 10 minutes flat.

I',m not sure, i think Ron will kick your ass when he protect G-2. Your team should taken R-3 without problem. The germ team was strong.

[quote name='M@ster of Dis@ster' date='10/31/06 10:01pm' post='129629'] [quote name='Nothing' post='129578' date='10/31/06 1:29pm'] MOD,

Finally, look at this screen shot from last night. A few MOBS on German, and we totally dominated Russian...BUT we could not plant 3 successfully over 2 games. Switch those teams around, and Russian would have beat German in 10 minutes flat. [/quote]



Well, we didn't get them(all 3 bases) as Russians either....

-->several vets on both teams, and it often ends up in a tie or point win at time limit.

lol, Nothing have you ever played on the German side?

I've played about half and half - as I normally do auto-assign. My conclusion: It is easier playing Russian, no doubt about it (easier to get all 3 bases popped, easier to defend, easier to mount an attack, easier to rack up kills). But your team's overall success will depend a lot on the distribution of vets/noobs.


Things were better when the paks were less effective/influential - I hate those damn things! (have I mentioned that before?)

Hey MOD,

That screenie you have shows some good players on Russian also. It will be hard to take R3 with Ron, Bertie and others that I see on that list. You are just proving my point with that screenie. If there is talent on German, they have just as easy a chance to win as Russian.

Also, I have too played both sides of the fence. Yes, I play 90% of the time on Russian cause I like that team. I also have Barbarossa running on my clan's server now as a 24/7 map. I practice on mine as well. Are you telling me that you can not hop in a P3, P4 or stug and can not hit any of the Russian bases? If so, please let me know so I can hop on your team and show you.

I really dislike the mp44 and that is mostly the reason I pick Russian. Even when I play Harbor, I am 90% russian as well. If im German, I always try to pick off a Russian with a PPsh so I can steal his gun right away.

As far as counting the middle pak as a Russian pak, I would have to disagree. Most of the time im on it I have to always watch for snipers at sandbag hill. You Germans can get to that hill just as fast as Russians can get to the pak. You have cover, were sitting ducks! That pak can easily be defused. Therefore we would have one pak that can hit G3 only. If you defuse middle pak, the paks are about even.

Problem with that series of games (I came in at the very end of round 1 of 2) is that the Germans stubbornly opened R1 and R2 too early. It's nearly impossible for the Germans, facing a veteran Russian team, to blow up R3 if all Russians are spawning within a nade's throw of R3.

Even with a pak firing down on R3 we managed to repel a dozen or so coordinated attacks and a couple of plants.

Granted, we, as Russians, didn't get anywhere (I set G3 a couple of times but had it defused), but we didn't "lose" either. Frustrating, I'm sure, for both sides.

I will never understand why, in round 2, when almost everyone already has their 40 points for arty, Germans open one or both R1 and R2 before R3 is blown...not for the points, right? I mean, the goal of the games is to blow the bases...not score tons of points, right?

Hey Major,

I completely agree. I get so pissed when someone opens G1 before we blow G2 and G3. I ask so nicely, I even made a bind for it. But some noob always does it anyways. I wish we could kick these guys for 2 mins every time they diss the team like that. It really is along the lines of sabotage in my book.

They had some good guys, but I know they'd agree, we had them dominated that game. Our n00bs were better than theirs. We had them pushed back in 3 all game. Got in and planted 3 a few times. But with so many within gernades throw away, it didn't matter we had them on their heels for the entire time. They could still hang on.



BTW, that is why R1 and R2 get popped early. When German dominates, it allows even the most inexperienced n00bs to waddle on up to R2 in a tank and blow it. Perversely, a more even game would have meant the n00bs might not have been able to blow R2 so early. Often in a game where one side dominates that G1 or R2 gets blown fairly early by the dominating side.



Anyway Nothing, play German for a week, then tell me it's even.

Finally, we were all n00bs once, so I'm getting used to the fact the minor bases get planted. It bugs me sometimes, but I remember the first time I planted a base in Barb I was all excited. Don't remember what it was, but I'm guessing it was probably something easy like R2.

Wow. That resonated with me. I'll take it down a notch when someone blows R2 or G1 early.

I agree, but noobs can at least listen to pleas of "please stop hitting R2"...

Your point is valid. The problem is some care and some don't. Those that care usually ask why (which is good) and then you have to spend a minute explaining it. Maybe I should bind a key to give an explanation as to why. A minute isn't that long but in the time I spend explaining, I could be in a jeep and at an opposing base. I always try to explain to someone who asks why, and those that ignore the explanation or tell you to f off, I won't pick up in a jeep and basically ignore.

You would have to have a couple binds together. One bind is not enough, it will cut off the rest of the message. Trust me, I have a bind already that I use for this.

I have to agree that the paks on the russin side rule, so you learn to work around it. The german tank can hit the russin r3 from g2, and I think r1 from g4 also. This is also good for defending g2. I think a lot has to do with good team work, players planning, some defending, some attacking, knowing that a stolen opponent's tank limits his attack. Good comunication, knowing where the opponents are is a big help. Why not, if it's possible, have a test game of regular serious players, and see what happens. Notice I left out good players, that way I can play...... . It would be nice to see if there are stats.

Well that probaly more then I have ever wrote.

They listen, but apparently they think that means someone, somewhere, is beating up R2-D2.

Another irksome thing is seeing a whole bunch of German tanks on R2 hill point blank blasting R2 when they have an early opportunity to obliterate R3 from that vantage point. Actually same thing with Germ tanks point blank pounding R1 instead of long rane thumping R3.

Noobs can be begged but they'll only listen 1 outta 100 times. It's up to the vets to shape the fast victory.

Lately the mob guys have started to switch to german for a change of pace. We have beaten opposition the same. Snipe the guys off the paks! thats all you have to do. Yes the back one is a challenge but a good spot can defend it. If you get in russian spawn and take both kv1 u got it made. The germans have a better field for sniping. The russians dont have it so good in that view. Yes the ppsh is kinda over powering but dont spray and pray with ur mg. go prone and aim down the sight. i hardley ever aim down the sight with the ppsh b/c most likely they will spray and pray also and there is no need b/c the ppsh will win that 9 out of 10 times. I say it makes it fun to have a challenge like that. The germans have alot more tanks than the russians. I agree the pak shots are made to over power the tanks.

if your quick you can beat the ppsh sprayers (which in my opinion is 98% of all vets who play barb..) 10 outta 10 times. even with a rifle you can. after spending so much time with a rifle for TWL etc when i go into a server like barb it makes it so much easier to pick off sprayers from a distance where they are not effective.



don't go running at a russian with a kar98.



let him come to you. spraying is not an advantage.

You should aim down the barrel with a PPSH. It puts your spray in a much tighter area, and usually works.



I beat most rifle guys. Of course, I get picked from distance some. But up close it is almost always a win for PPSH, and when at distance I try and sneak up before I start shooting, or dance my way closer, which works a lot.



Rifles are for people who want to work the mid-field and don't use tanks. PPSH's are for base planters, and those who use tanks who often end up in short range battles when they bail. Also for defenders who use tanks but bail to fight players who enter your base.



So what gun is effective for you depends on your style. But in Barb, with all the tanks, working the md-field with a rifle is still dangerous. I can't think of any regular whose main gun is a bolt-action rifle with a 2.00+ kill ratio. I might be wrong on that. Anyone?



But aimming down a barrel with the PPSH works. Check my stats. PPSH is by far my #1 weapon.

well put mr. MoD! all that is exactly right!

i personally love trying to plant bases WITH a rifle though. or maybe a bazooka and pulling out a pistol after they get shell-shock...of course that only works with one guy so if multiple guys run down your screwed haha.



my favorite though, is sniping mom #2 off of the far russian spawn pak so she can't hit G3.

Thats why I hit G3 with the Russian heavy next to that pak. No more sniper issues, lol.

Planting with a rifle is a deathwish if you ask me. You better have arty, smoke and a satchel if your planning on doing that.

yes, if i ever have a satchel thats of course what i use. i usually don't plant with a rifle unless i have a lot of cover - i'd rather cover the person.